I don’t think this is true: you can associate the alternate workout with the scheduled one and it’ll appear as +/- 0 in your progression. Although you will not get any credit in the progression that you actually did do. (I wrote to TR support about this.) At least that’s how it has worked for me. You need to select the workout you did do in the calendar and select Match.
1 Like
Well, I think these plans were the entire basis for Dylan Johnson’s infamous video. So, yes, IMO they include too much intensity because of exactly what you say.
I don’t understand why you need 2 VO2 days a threshold day and a sweet spot day in a week, seems like a perfect way for burnout. Even dropping the sweet spot day for endurance I think for most there’s still too much intensity. Especially over the course of 8 weeks.
7 Likes
This!
1 Like
This is the template of most build plans you can buy. For example build from Tim Cusick follows this template and includes 2x vo2 and threshold and then shifts into sprint and vo2 max. Basically it’s progressive overload - you are digging deep hole through intensity and then recover and taper before a race. Normally the purpoise of build is to make you race ready so you need the top end. But everything changes if you do the same amount of intensity during base and speciality. Even the ISM recommends 2x intensity and a race in build, despite a lot of attempts from Fast Talk crew in podcast to shift the discussion you do not need this amount of intensive days 
I fully understand the concept of progressive overload. IMO the problem is that the overload is brought on with too much emphasis on HIT.
This isn’t just a random opinion, it’s based on observing the numerous posts on this forum.l about how users are burnt out or cannot complete workouts.
I’m curious what percentage of users who bravely embark on following a mid vol SS Base → Build → Specialty actually complete it with 100% compliance.
The last thing I will say is that across the board I have never heard a coach (KM, FasCat, FastLabs, Grant Holicky, Cusick, anyone in That Triathlon Show, and Evoq) allude to favoring a methodology that suggests doing 3 HIT & a SS day per week.
It’s been really interesting to listen to @brendanhousler talk (almost bewilderingly) about how Tom Bell has refocused his own training to be even slower.
Many ways to train though. Curious, have you completed a TR Build plan as prescribed?
5 Likes
Full Distance Tri Build MV has two intensity days per week.
This SS is the main problem and I think we fully agree with that. If it was a long Z2 day (like in 95% off-the-shelve plans) we would have 3 hard days and a long z2 - so basically the most standard template you could find.
I am not saying that TR plans are optimized and do agree that due the replacing Z2 with SST they are too intensive for most users. I was just commenting on the Build phase where 2x vo2 and threshold work is a pretty standard template. Yes, it is a very hard template and you need a pretty big base to cope with it. And when we start to talk about the base, it is where lays the biggest issue, especially when you are new to cycling (like me). And comparing it to other plans - it is basically Advanced level when comparing to TP’s plans.
Example week form TC Advanced Build (third week of a build):
T: 4x2 FRC (90% of 2 min power), W:2h Z2, T: 6x4 VO2,F: Recovery, S: 60min threshold,S: 3:45h Z2
This would be an extremely hard week for most people.
The structure for the whole plan: Vo2/FRC, Threshold, VO2, Long (over 3h) Z2.
Just like I said - the structure is virtually the same (mins SST), but it’s called advanced build - not “my first training plan”.
The only solution would be introducing another level of segmentation - new, advanced and master. And finally removing SST workouts as 4th hard day.
I have to shamelessly admit - no. So probably this lowers my credibility substantially (along with my short experience). I did not complete this because after SST 1 and 2 LV base (my first year of riding a bike) I have been heavily influenced by Kolie Moore podcast so after doing 1 week of Sustained Power Build, (that was too intensive for the first time user due to my total inability to ride at threshold) I have upped my volume over MV TSS and start doing 3x threshold a week for an almost full year.
I think we all agree that there is a lot of intensity in TR yearly structure, and most of the people would benefit way more from the plans if there is the proper relation of easy and hard from a yearly perspective as there is a lot of middle work that supposedly should be equivalent to Z2 work, and not enough differentiation between Base and Build (that are virtually the same in terms of structure and intensity distribution) But hey - this is all only my personal observation and I am not a coach, I have no credentials other than reading and listening to a lot and trying to find my own path looking at what works and what not. From the numbers perspective, what I myself, I could say it works for me, and for me only.
3 Likes
I’m assuming you are referring to Velocious (Tim Cusick). Here is a comparison of:
- Velocious Masters Full Season 8-12 hours/week
- FasCat Intervals for Road Racing Intermediate 8-12 hours/week
- TrainerRoad General Build High Volume Week 3 (more anaerobic)
- TrainerRoad General Build High Volume Week 3 (more vo2)
| Day | Velocious Week 3 of Build | FasCat Week 3 of Build | TR Week 3 General Build | TR Week 7 General Build |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Mon | Rest | Rest | Rest | Rest |
| Tue | 4x2-min vo2 | 3x4-min vo2 | 3 sets 5x70-sec | 3 sets 3x3-min vo2 |
| Wed | Endurance | 3x10-min Threshold | Endurance | Endurance |
| Thur | 6x4-min vo2 | Endurance | 7x8-min over/under | 5x11-min Threshold |
| Fri | Active Recovery | Rest | Endurance | Endurance |
| Sat | 1x60+ min Threshold | 180 TSS Group Ride | 6 sets of 5x40/20-sec | 6 sets of 5x40/20-sec |
| Sun | Endurance | Endurance | 3x20-min Sweet Spot | 50min Threshold |
| Total | 12 hours / 710 TSS | 9 hours / 513 TSS | 9.5 hours / 537 TSS | 9.5 hours / 547 TSS |
That comparison is somewhat without context, but interesting to look at nonetheless.
From a structure point-of-view there is not much difference between TR General Build MV vs HV…
TR General Build High Volume Week 3
TR General Build Mid Volume Week 3
3 Likes
Thank you for this comparison. And from your perspective, being coached - is the structure similar (of course we are talking about “optimal” week, as probably your plan is tailored regularly to your feel and situation?
2 Likes
Thanks for posting this, and it’s obvious that all of these are not a walk in the park.
It’s interesting because if I follow a TR plan, I will have to wait 4 weeks before I’m scheduled do do an endurance ride that is longer than 90-min. There are only three endurance workouts in the 8-week plan that are 90-min or longer. Just an observation, not a critique. Perhaps this is by design and is optimal with regards to maximizing fitness during a build phase.
1 Like
That’s ok. We aren’t required to have some certification in order to have a really strong and accurate POV. I too have not completed a build phase as prescribed, I’m unwilling to invest the time to find out and see if it works, let alone most of these workouts are next to impossible to do outdoors–which is all I ride between April and November, save for the rainy day. And I know that I would be burnt out.
So yeah, I guess I have no credentials to back up my opinion. But I do have banked some knowledge and takeaways from endlessly listening to other coaches on podcasts and reading training articles. And if it’s not already clear (
) my POV is that mid vol TR plans, in general, are far too intense for their intended middle of the bell curve athlete. I always appreciate your discourse @jarsson
1 Like
Just saw this on Twitter:
Really TR? I think this is another case of TR living in an echo chamber and reflecting on its own plans because the endurance training zone is THE foundation of plans from Velocious and FasCat and CTS and ScientificTriathlon and so many others.
1 Like
and since forever.
1 Like
right!? It’s definitely been an eye opener and the funniest is when a euro domestic guy goes “been following the pods for a while; you’re starting to sound like a european coach!” LOL.
They definitely see things a bit differently, mainly detached a bit more from the metrics. WKO is great, but it can only spit out what we put in, and we can only input so much…said differently, SO MUCH is missing. The feelings are where it’s at with a glance to WKO.
To the guys initial question here, @jdlbb : if you’re feeling run down, you are. LISTEN TO THAT, not what the plan says. Gotta adjust for sure.
I always thought i was on the right side of the amount of aerobic work, but I still think I was one session too hard. ALWAYS cranking 2 deep ones from Feb - July, then fizzle.
Just a different cadence.
(Anthony, Thanks for checking out the pod and for the @ )
Good luck with training everyone!
5 Likes
The only non-compliance was due to travel, illness or life interfering. Of course, I did ride outdoors sometimes, and I simply replaced one of my weekend workouts with the outdoor ride. But IMHO that’s being compliant with the training plan.
I think the first two years I was sick for a prolonged period (we have a young child and she brought all sorts of germs from day care), so I restarted with Base. I did modify my workout plans last year by increasing volume, i. e. I manually upped the difficulty of some workouts and added endurance workouts. I couldn’t do that this season due to life stress, and I am back at vanilla MV.
This year was the most challenging in terms of training and life stress, and I failed Saturday workouts of Build. But I could tell, I was making solid progress. For the record, I increased my FTP from 323 W last season to 342 W (4.7 W/kg). Within the 4 weeks of Build, I gained 7 W (from 335 W or 4.6 W/kg) I started my TR career with 277 W (3.7 W/kg? I don’t remember my exact weight then, though). FWIW I turned 40 this year.
In my experience, the biggest predictor of whether I could finish a workout as scheduled is sleep. Too little sleep and I have learnt to alter my workouts. It seems I now need >8 hours and I’m getting usually about 7:30 hours on average.
I would say, though, it is important to state the reason: according to TR the completion rates for the weekend endurance ride they had included in earlier iterations of their plans was very low. You are right, though, that I would prefer an option to replace the Sunday workout (which is currently an easy Sweet Spot workout) with a Z2 workout by default.
Plan Builder asks how experienced you are with structured workouts, and it could add more Z2 to the more experienced riders who presumably have the gumption to sit through Z2 workouts. The only thing is that indoors, 2:30 hours on the trainer is the limit for me.
Exactly.
The point of TR plans isn’t that you blindly follow them. TR is a tool and you need to adapt Training Plans to suit your needs. Some days you are simply not in the mood for certain types of workouts. Finding out when you should toughen it out and when you should pull the plug is really a journey. At least it has been for me.
I typically review the next week’s workouts every Sunday evening and make adjustments if necessary. Usually that means adding extra credit workouts like Taku to get a little more Z2 work in.
1 Like
Great advice! That is how I have managed going through a full base-build-specialty. A lot of us are type A personalities who don’t want to quit or cut a workout short because the ego. My biggest advice is swapping sunday rides for long endurance, it helps my mental being outside and helps my body recover for the following week. I like having the sweet spot planned in case I’m short on time because of life or work. So far my experience with a AT has been great, if I’m fatigued The following workouts be less intense but still hit the same energy system. The biggest thing is like stated above, listen to how YOU feel. 
2 Likes