How do I get better at 1-3min power in the middle of threshold/sweetspot/tempo, aka avoid getting dropped on zwift race climbs?

You can train this in. I had the same problem with a weekly road race series a couple of years back. I did a load of those TR workouts that is basically sweetspot with serious uplifts at the start/end of the intervals. (Huxley or Bondcliff)

Train yourself to be able to dig waaay deeper when you’re already on tired legs. It all came right in about a month and i was able to hang in there.

some good info here: Criss-Cross Intervals – FasCat Coaching

yesterday I did 1 minute at 120% and 7 minutes at 90%. All sorts of ways to program these, my coach does a lot of way over/under like 85% and 110-130%.

4 Likes

And another one on over-under variants:

2 Likes

Seems contradictory but my power in those ranges always improves with Z2 and also capacity to do multiple types of shorter efforts. The other thing are already mentioned o/u. The 30s hard bursts and back to high tempo work very well for that - for me way better than steady ones just above threshold.

2 Likes

I was going to make exactly this recommendation to OP. I did more or less the same throughout base. I kept the ratios the same at 4:1, but increased power a little, then increased block duration. I started at 2x20 @ 80/125% and the last few were:
1x75 @ 85/125%, 1x90 @ 80/125% and 1x60 @ 90/125%

3 Likes

I guess I did mean them in relation to how TR tends to program them. A little bit over, a little bit under. I was thinking a more extreme in terms of the difference between peaks and valleys.

So you are suggesting 2x20 with 3min at 85%, 45s at 130% and adjust the ratio spent rather than the power to advance? I like that, it sounds hard but doable with clear progression.

1 Like

I do know about the trainer slider, but I think in this case it is just that I cant generate the power to stay with the lead group and not that the torque required is getting out of hand. I am not running out of gearing.

1 Like

My tip (stolen from the guy who told me it) is go a gear too hard, and muscle the gear…then just don’t give up. It’s unofficially called ‘The Thrall’ by our team, it might sound stupid but it’s successful!

Example:

This is the most well meaning, polite HTFU i have received in a while. :smiley:

4 Likes

Look at the HighNorth and FasCat links for ideas. FWIW this is the business end of intervals yesterday

Because I was feeling strong, and traffic patterns ahead (which I got unlucky and you can see the dropouts), and I was doing well on a 20-25 minute Strava segment, I only took 30 seconds of recovery between 2nd and 3rd set. Could have easily done another one or two intervals. Target on those were 235W and 305W. My heart rate was super stable, and per the comments above I do a lot of 3:1 ratios so 1 minute significantly over, and 3 minutes mid to upper tempo (80-90%). IMHO the 5+ hours/week dedicated endurance work really helps make those easy, and keep the heart rate under control. It took over a minute at 130+% to bring HR up to threshold on that last interval.

Well, there is that… But fighting a massive gear seems to make it easier not to give up. You either stamp or the next pedal rev or come to a complete stop, there’s no backing off a bit and watching the wheel ride away! It may also help as when things flatten out and the resistance drops, you naturally increase to a more normal cadence which keeps the power on - others that are spinning at say 90 on the climb will either spin out or have to shift, the other choice being ‘have a bit of a rest’ which a few will take…

Interesting. I misunderstood and didnt put rest between the intervals within the 20 min block. TR says it would be a 7.3 without the rests: which is probably to much for me. This version with 90 seconds between reps is 4.3 which is probably to easy but I like it as a starting point https://www.trainerroad.com/app/cycling/workouts/1491723-2x20-ou-85-120-4-1-3-00-0-45-2- and then I can cut the rests and push the ratio of over to under closer to 2:1.

1 Like

Why don’t you program some 3:1 ratio, or 5:1, or 7:1, and go out and try it? Rather than psyching yourself out? From the plans, TR doesn’t appear to think endurance matters much. However in my experience laying down an endurance foundation has pushed my actual short power much higher than doing so many repeats. Everyone responds differently so YMMV.

Naa, I am not getting in my head. I am going to go and do just that, mess with it, tonight on my ride. I am just stuck at work right now and dont feel like working so I am playing with workout creator rather than doing what I should be. Its a poor replacement for training but a pretty good replacement for work.

3 Likes

ride on :+1:

Instead of 130% (or any % of FTP for that matter), I’d do whatever your (current/recent) 5 minute peak power is, but otherwise, yes.

1 Like

One thing I see with all of my custom workouts from workout creator is that progression levels are usually off by quite a bit relative to the TR workouts I still do. I wouldn’t use that as too much of a judge.

I have a similar issue in Zwift races where climbs are longer than a minute or two. I am not a light rider and end up in VO2 max territory on all Zwift climbs. I am, at best, mid pack in my category and can usually hang on one 4-5 minute climb but not multiple climbs. I usually need to race in over/territory until the climbs. I have assessed my options as (1) increase FTP, (2) decrease kg and increase W/kg or (3) build VO2 max repeatability and duration. I don’t have repeatability issues if the climbs are less than 2 minutes. What I am not sure about is whether progressing VO2 workouts that don’t start near threshold will help.

Over unders. Find long ones in the library and sprinkle them into your plan. Try to increase intensity 1% each over to really hammer it.

Quick question on these way overs/unders if I may…

I completed one of the sessions recommended above to start today - 45 sec/3 min @ 120%/85% - done as 2 sets of 5 reps or approx 2x20. I aimed for increased cadence for the overs and managed approx 100-105rpm, and then dropped to a more usual 90ish rpm for the unders. It felt a good session but I never really felt a build up of lactate or much of the ‘burn’ except briefly right at the end. It felt more like a vo2 session with me breathing fairly hard during the overs. Sitting here an hour after finishig I can ‘feel’ my legs and it feels like I’ve done a good bit of work, but I didnt experience the burn I was expecting.

Now I’m wondering if doing the overs at a lower (more usual) rpm migt create more lactate build up during the overs and hence force more of the lactate clearance effect we want during the unders?

Any thoughts?