# Great thread on 80:20 and training intensity distribution...made me think really hard. :-D

**URL:** <https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574>\
**Category:** Training\
**Created:** [January 11, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574 "2022-01-11T16:04:58Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 13\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Brennus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/brennus/32/1318_2.png) [@Brennus](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Brennus)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 4:04pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/1 "2022-01-11T16:04:58Z")

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Dr Skiba turned me on to this thread. I’m an 80:20 believer so some of the thoughts/data in this thread made me think really hard. Whichever way you think about it there was a lot of interesting stuff in there!

[(20) Billy Sperlich on Twitter: “I’ve been interested in the training intensity distribution of different (non) elite endurance athletes in the past years. Here are my experiences and 11 takeaways with TID:” / Twitter](https://twitter.com/BillySperlich/status/1480816839810859009)

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**Author:** ![mailman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mailman/32/101794_2.png) [@mailman](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mailman)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/2 "2022-01-11T17:58:37Z")

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Could you sumise for those of us that deleted Twitter?

😌

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**Author:** ![mwglow15](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mwglow15/32/28576_2.png) [@mwglow15](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mwglow15)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/3 "2022-01-11T19:12:18Z")

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![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/8/3/83fc89d65c46c867e0006ca37db5a1465293d9ac.png)  
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**Author:** ![mwglow15](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mwglow15/32/28576_2.png) [@mwglow15](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mwglow15)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:13pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/4 "2022-01-11T19:13:30Z")

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And all his study links in order

> **[The training intensity distribution among well-trained and elite endurance...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26578968/)**
>
> Researchers have retrospectively analyzed the training intensity distribution (TID) of nationally and internationally competitive athletes in different endurance disciplines to determine the optimal volume and intensity for maximal adaptation. The...

> **[Retrospective Analysis of Training Intensity Distribution Based on Race Pace...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34989918/)**
>
> The results show that the method of training intensity quantification substantially affects the fraction of TID in well-trained sprint kayakers. TIDRace determination shows low interindividual variation compared to the physiologically based TIDBla-HR...

> **[The Relationship Between the Distribution of Training Intensity and...](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2021.788108/full)**
>
> Purpose: To evaluate retrospectively the training intensity distribution (TID) among highly trained canoe sprinters during a single season and to relate TID to changes in performance.Methods: The heart rates during on-water training by 11 German...

> **[The Polarization-Index: A Simple Calculation to Distinguish Polarized From...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31249533/)**
>
> The training intensity distribution (TID) of endurance athletes has retrieved substantial scientific interest since it reflects a vital component of training prescription: (i) the intensity of exercise and its distribution over time are essential...

> **[Eleven-Week Preparation Involving Polarized Intensity Distribution Is Not...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28824440/)**
>
> Polarized (POL) training intensity distribution (TID) emphasizes high-volume low-intensity exercise in zone (Z)1 (\< first lactate threshold) with a greater proportion of high-intensity Z3 (\>second lactate threshold) compared to Z2 (between...

> **[The integration of training and off-training activities substantially alters...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34446761/)**
>
> Training studies in elite athletes traditionally focus on the relationship between scheduled training (TRAIN) and performance. Here, we added activities outside of scheduled training i.e., off-training (OFF) contributing to total training (TOTAL) to...

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**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 7:19pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/5 "2022-01-11T19:19:11Z")

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> [@Brennus](#):
>
> Dr Skiba turned me on to this thread.

side note, Skiba’s new book is now available:

> **[Scientific Training for Endurance... by Philip Freire Skiba](https://www.amazon.com/Scientific-Training-Endurance-Athletes-Philip/dp/0979463629?tag=trainerroad-20)**
>
> Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes \[Philip Freire Skiba\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes

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**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:04pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/6 "2022-01-11T20:04:48Z")

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> [@Brennus](#):
>
> I’m an 80:20 believer so some of the thoughts/data in this thread made me think really hard.

Hmm, a lot of non-cycling studies in his links. I pulled them all up and only scanned the summaries. Some interesting conclusions in other sports that have a dominant or large contribution of upper body muscle (like kayaking). Found it hard to generalize the results of those studies to cycling.

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**Author:** ![maletero](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/maletero/32/59551_2.png) [@maletero](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/maletero)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/7 "2022-01-11T20:39:43Z")

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Aren’t a lot of the Seiler studies that are foundational to polarized plans non-cycling (Nordic skiing)? Obviously it requires a huge aerobic engine, but it sure isn’t riding a bike.

I think the last couple tweets in the thread are the key: it’s not black and white, and any effort to make it black and white is not likely to be useful off the shelf when it comes to individual training. I think most of the heated discussions on this forum stem from a misunderstanding/disagreement with those last couple points.

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**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/8 "2022-01-11T20:40:58Z")

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In other words, different people respond differently to training. Individualize your training.

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**Author:** ![HLaB](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hlab/32/60448_2.png) [@HLaB](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HLaB)\
**Post date:** [January 11, 2022, 9:09pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/9 "2022-01-11T21:09:10Z")

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Dr Seiler YouTube on 80/20 is interesting too.

[![](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/2/9/29506e88c2282eade49bc408e17abb39db78cf15.jpeg "80/20 Training to Race Faster, with Dr. Stephen Seiler | Extramilest Show #50") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxODgYXOO7w)

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**Author:** ![Aplcr0331](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/aplcr0331/32/118333_2.png) [@Aplcr0331](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Aplcr0331)\
**Post date:** [January 12, 2022, 5:54am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/11 "2022-01-12T05:54:06Z")

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Let me know when Strava, Training Peaks, TrainerRoad or my Garmin watch etc, show HR or Power Levels in the 3 Zone Model.

After reading the pro/elite thread with hundreds of files of pro cyclist, I don’t buy the 80/20 thing any more. Those guys and gals spend WAY too much time in the “grey zone” doing a bunch of **stuff** throughout their workouts. They don’t do 4 easy rides at 68% then bury themselves with Wynne -4 or Spanish Needle the other 2 days. Plus, as is pointed out often, all this POL talk is descriptive not prescriptive.

The retroactive studies rarely have majority cyclists, meh.

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**Author:** ![mwglow15](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mwglow15/32/28576_2.png) [@mwglow15](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mwglow15)\
**Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 9:09pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/12 "2022-01-13T21:09:40Z")

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> [@Aplcr0331](#):
>
> Let me know when Strava, Training Peaks, TrainerRoad or my Garmin watch etc, show HR or Power Levels in the 3 Zone Model.

You can set up TP and Garmin to show just 3 zones.

I sort of agree with the rest. Though several things are different with pros vs the avg person doing 6-12 hours per week.

They are supremely fit so they also recover much better than the average person (not discounting the fact that riding and recovering is their job).

They also do ride a TON of endurance. You look at that thread of pro rides and they do a ton of riding at \<70%.

The average person is doing a bunch of \<2 hour rides. So it makes more sense to separate the hard from the easy. So you do 2-3 hard 1 hour workouts and then 3-4 easier rides. If that person was going to do how the pros do (ride a lot with some stuff) on their rides then they’d be doing like 1 threshold interval per ride and never actually overloading in any particular instance. You can’t just scale everything down 50% when you go from 20hrs to 10hrs in a week.

Also, Seiler himself has said that his whole strict 80/20 thing was done A) for easy to interpret scientific studies and B) as a reaction to seeing too many athletes do the “go out and ride kinda hard” all the time and never actually doing endurance and never going hard enough. He’s even said that after going through a stricter polarized phase to retrain bad habits he would then transition to a more pyramidal approach with targeted time in the ‘gray zone’.

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**Author:** ![Brennus](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/brennus/32/1318_2.png) [@Brennus](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Brennus)\
**Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 12:25am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/14 "2022-01-14T00:25:11Z")

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BTW I think Dr Seiler is presenting at the 8020endurance event this saturday. I think you can get free tickets to his presentation but I’ll probably be on the bike at that time. 😞

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**Author:** ![HLaB](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hlab/32/60448_2.png) [@HLaB](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HLaB)\
**Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 12:41am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/great-thread-on-80-20-and-training-intensity-distribution-made-me-think-really-hard-d/67574/15 "2022-01-14T00:41:54Z")

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I think its 4pm GMT and Dr Seiler is up 2nd (4:30 GMT). I am usually back from my ride before then if I remember I’ll check it out. Cheers 👍