I’ve been a bit frustrated about TR the last week or 2. I’ve noticed that my endurance rides are a bit too hard and have me working at 140bpm or even more (FTP 234, some rides I get to 175watts per interval), and after watching so many videos about training and zone 2, I’ve learned that “you should keep easy rides easy, and hard rides hard” and this makes the endurance rides more on the tempo zone. I’ve manually set them down to limit my HR to around 130 but then that affects my AI FTP, which in turn will make my VO2 Max and Threshold exercises stay the same and not get harder at all, and that bothers me quite a lot. I don’t think they are too easy, but they are more on the moderate to hard range.
I’ve decided to start doing ramp tests every month again.
Any thoughts on how to keep the easy rides easy without having to adjust each one of them. For example, limiting the IF on the endurance rides to 0,6 or something like that?
TR prescribes endurance rides in the endurance zone, by power. Short and moderate length endurance rides will sometimes be at the top end of endurance. Riding at the top end of endurance is still easy, especially for a short-ish ride. Its also a stronger stimulus than riding easier, which is why the ML model prefers it for many (but not all) short easy rides.
The internet advice to go very very easy on endurance rides is only really applicable for high level athletes, doing very high volumes, and very long rides. IE if you swap out a 4 hour mostly easy endurance ride for a 6 hour very easy endurance ride, you’ll get more time in the saddle. And since time in the saddle is the primary driver of z2 stimulus, its worth going easier because doing so get more time for the same or less fatigue.
This is irrelevant for lower volume athletes. Because you’re time constrained, not maximum recoverable volume constrained.
The standard exception is, if you’re feeling very fatigued you can always choose to ride endurance easier than prescribed if the alternative is skipping the ride.
Op has just stated that it isn’t easy and adjusted them down. I’d agree with the Op that generally top end of endurance is not easy particularly if FTP is inflated or you see magical 5% increases in AI FTP.
I dont have a TR solution but would agree with your approach of riding by feel or guided HR
There are a lot of people in this forum who believe in trying to make easy rides harder, so you’re going to get mixed replies. If you’re feeling like your Endurance rides are too hard or they are leading to fatigue that makes it harder to do your Hard rides, I would do it as @Helvellyn mentioned. To do this, go to your training plan on the TR “Career” page, click the training plan name, then click on the “Training Approach”, click “Edit Training Approach”, click the “Customize by zone” box, and then change the Endurance approach to make it easier.
Note: this may lower (or raise) your predicted FTP.
This is what I do. I also believe in making easy rides stupid easy and hard rides very hard. My endurance zone is set to conservative and upper zones are set to demanding.
So far this has worked very well. Easy rides are usually 55-65% and sometimes less. If I did my endurance rides all at 70-75% I would be too fatigued. I also train 15+ hours though so factor that in
I think “easy” is a relative term in the context of training. Upper Z2 is easy in comparison to threshold but its still not that easy. For me, upper z2 is “easy” but its still annoying enough that it feels like work. Especially the longer rides.
My advice is based on whether you are able to complete your hard rides having done what trainerroad has prescribed you for your easier rides. If you are unable to do you hard rides due to fatigue, then dial back the zone 2 or better still, rate them appropriately (moderate instead of easy) and let the AI adjust them accordingly. If you ARE able to complete your hard rides then i would just follow the plan as it is.
My upper zone 2 heart rate varies from 135-145bpm depending on the day.
Thanks so much, that indeed did the trick! I moved the endurance to Conservative and it seems like it fixed it, so my Endurance rides will now be more in line with what I want.
I definitely agree that riding at 75% of FTP is right where things start to not feel “easy” anymore. Sustained work around that high Z2 / low Z3 is taxing. Some days it feels easier than others, but it’s, by definition, where your body starts to work a bit harder.
Those types of workouts are really productive, though, so I wouldn’t avoid them if you don’t need to.
If they’re interfering with other workouts in your plan, I’d try to move things around so that you can keep them in your rotation.
I’m in a non-interval week (rest week between build and specialty phases) I’ve ridden at the same frequency but kept rides to endurance
I did a ride this morning outside without power meter but removed it from TRai consideration due to the previously mentioned issues with bugs.
tomorrow (Saturday) is colesseum-4, however if I change this to any other workout profile from sustained power endurance it results in my ftp prediction going from 227 (currently 223) to 222. If I delete this single workout the sane applies. I can’t understand that at all.
you could have argued that making an easy ride too hard is deleterious and I accept this, but if the AI thinks I’m too tired or I shouldn’t overdo things then removing an easy hour should yield such a dramatic effect imho.
As it happens, if I ride outside for an hour tomorrow easily then the FTP will drop. Not really sure I can quite get my head around it.
By all means share and discuss my calendar if need be. I believe it’s set to public.
Same thing has been happening to me over the last few weeks — my HR tends to drift into the low tempo range during endurance rides as watts are getting higher.
However, it only happens on shorter endurance rides of around 1–1.5 hours.
On longer endurance rides (2.5+ hours), my HR stays mostly in the endurance zone, below 135 bpm.
I’m not planning to change anything, as it makes sense to me that if I only have an hour available for an endurance ride, the effort will naturally be a bit higher compared to my “real” endurance rides that last 2+ hours. The idea of keeping endurance rides very easy makes more sense to me for rides lasting 2-3+ hours.
Are you guys seeing data on the back end that suggests the 75% of FTP type workouts (something like James), are highly productive? Curious why you specifically mentioned these rides are highly productive. I have an endurance week in my plan this week so I’m interested
That top end of Z2 is kind of like the sweet spot of endurance riding. It’s right on that line of lactate threshold 1, which is a great place to spend some time each week.
It’s as far as you can push into “easy” training before things start to become more taxing.
Anecdotal but when I set my endurance rides to conservative, it kept my endurance workouts manageable and my predicted FTP went up. From the written and audio media I’ve consumed, most coaches are in agreement that keeping your endurance rides suspiciously easy will help keep a rider moving along across the course of a yearly training cycle no matter the rider’s volume. Fatigue can sneak up on a person.
For me it’s the same thing. Every video, article or podcast that I’ve come across mentions that one of the most important things is to keep easy rides easy and keep the hard ones hard enough, so I will stick to doing the endurance rides below 132bpm at all times. Also, in an interview San Millan said that once we go into zone 3, it takes our bodies around 30 minutes to go back down to the “zone 2” system again, which is also why I don’t want to cross that line.
I’ll do a Ramp Test every 2 months anyways, they are kind of fun, for me at least!.
I might be totally wrong, but if Im going to listen to someone, it’s probably going to be one of them (Seiler, San Millan, Attia..).
keep easy rides easy and keep the hard ones hard enough, so I will stick to doing the endurance rides below 132bpm at all times. Also, in an interview San Millan said that once we go into zone 3, it takes our bodies around 30 minutes to go back down to the “zone 2” system again, which is also why I don’t want to cross that line.
Keep in mind that there aren’t hard cutoffs for any of these “zones.” Our bodies don’t know what Z2 or Z3 are, and a switch doesn’t instantly flip when you get to 76% of your FTP.
Also, your Z3 might start at 72% of FTP or 78% of FTP, and your FTP changes regularly throughout your training cycle. Riding that line of Z2 and Z3 can be really beneficial, and it’s nothing to fear.
Just like LT2 / FTP, going slightly over or slightly under every few seconds isn’t going to cause much of a difference. Go above FTP for 60 seconds, though, and you’ll likely notice. The benefits of training on both sides of each zone (Sweet Spot < Threshold > Suprathreshold, for example) can be really great.
Riding at 75% of FTP is likely not going to be too taxing to recover from before your next workout unless you’re spending a lot of time there (more than 90 minutes for most of us).
Or you might be totally right. Science, however, has nothin to do with who is saying something. It’s only what is being said, and how true it is, that matters.
Who know? I also did a 5 hour endurance ride on a red day and it went up. I don’t put too much stock in the AI FTP estimate, especially during the summer when I hardly ride the trainer.
