Just to clarify, I wasn’t criticizing you…just pointing out that when it comes to aero especially, engineers have found ways to still improve on aero performance while reducing weight / tube sizes overall. The current frame designs would likely not have been feasible 5 years ago.
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I think Giant need to do an aero upgrade of the TCR. I love that bike, I owned one once and to me it just is everything a race bike should be.
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I hope they don’t, cause then I’ll be forced to buy one, which means I’ll be 7-10k poorer.
Aero bikes with no cables look so sweet.
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I got one last year…and while I am a confirmed aero nerd, that downtube surely isn’t very aero.
That said, the ride on that frame is sublime.
But I would be shocked if we don’t see an aero upgrade ala the Tarmac or Emonda on that frame soon.
I think we are at the point with carbon and alloy work that frame designs are going to be largely equivalent aerodynamically with the exception of geometry/rider position. So the only thing that will make a frame more aero than another is the notional position it puts the rider in. That’s just my opinion, but even some boutique frame designers are incorporating kamm tails in their basic road frame designs these days. You’re seeing narrower head tubes, integrated cockpits with aero top tubes all over the place, too.
While a true airfoil design on the down tube is probably marginally better aerodynamically it might make for a stiff ride, it might perform worse at higher yaw angles, and is less practical for things like mounts and doesn’t protect bottles from the wind, and generally weigh more as well.
When I look at a lot of aero-specific frames vs those more standard road frames the biggest design difference is the wheel cutout in most cases. But even that is being blurred a little bit in many cases like the TCR, Tarmac SL7, Canyon Ultimate, et. al.
They’re all gonna look the same soon, just with different geometry aero vs. standard race vs. endurance.
Yes, the aero version of the TCR will be the one. Have you noticed btw that they never do a head to head between the TCR and Propel with same wheels etc… That is the most obvious test in the world and surely wouldn’t be that hard…
The longer detailed post had a great bullet I want to emphasise: if everyone has 50mm wheels, then there’s no longer a benefit, except you’ll all go faster. You’re only getting a benefit from the stuff those around you aren’t doing.
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At the risk of nitpicking, there is always a benefit to specific aero upgrade. As you note, you will still go faster.
The question is not if there is a “benefit”, it is whether there is an “advantage” over your competitors.
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I have nothing to add to this conversation other than that this is the greatest response of all time 
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Might be worth describing your test protocol for feedback.
Mine is not perfect but it can easily see shaved leg difference. I went to a smooth multi use trail on a calm quiet day - no car wakes or intersections, did my best to hold a constant position although it was on a road bike… steady power for a few minutes in one direction, then back. Make a pair of private Strava segments to look at a few mins of the middle of these runs (after you got up to a steady speed) in each direction.
Then, shave legs in parking lot with battery clippers/foil and accept the curious looks as you pile up some nesting material for local rodents. Then repeat the test immediately afterwards with as much attention as possible to exact same position and power output through the entire run. (You can correct for small power differences later if needed…)
I found an average 1.03mph gain in steady state at matched power. Or put another way, if I plug the data into an online cycling calculator, calibrated to my speeds in these tests, it worked out to 17W less to achieve the same speed I started with in the lower 20s mph. More than good enough for me. And no ability to test ABAB even if I wanted to 
You do have to spend some time trying to take out all the sources of error you can. Don’t do one test and come back another day to compare and expect to learn much. And read about the Chung method as a more elegant approach for things that aren’t so obvious to pick up. I’m still searching for a good half pipe road to make optimal use of it on my TT bike.
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A half-pipe is handy but if you don’t have one there are other venues you can use.
1.03 mph faster after shaving your legs. That must’ve been A LOT of hair! 
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Yeah, if I recall, specialized saw something like 5-20W depending on the rider when they tested a few in their wind tunnel… YMMV. I’m definitely on the higher end of the scale. That plus aero kit and getting rid of my commuter rear rack was like a year of PRs only discovered after my first 4 years cycling lol… Aero is absolutely real.
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I think wind tends to be the biggest headache for me… But what would you see as next best to a half pipe? I’m fortunate to live in a rural area where car passes are not zero but can be well under one per minute, and we have a lot of hills of most any type.
I often run our out and back TTs through aerolab on GC and it is remarkable how consistent those results can be for open roads with occasional cars and often a good bit of wind… Definitely want to spend more time finding something shorter than 10 miles all out that I can repeat many times!
A half-pipe is just an out-and-back with enough gradient change so that it’s easy to get a big range in speed and power. If you have a flattish road that’s sheltered from the wind and doesn’t have many cars you can use it for an out-and-back but then you’re the one who has to make sure you get a big range in speed in power–that’s all it is. So you don’t have to do 10 mile loops: I’ve done out-and-backs on roads that had a handy turnaround about 800 meters out, so the entire out-and-back was around 1 mile.
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dude, that just isn’t true, haven’t you read the 100 response that aero doesn’t matter in a group? 
As soon as you are in a group, you suddenly are ridding in a vacuum and no air ever pass you. It’s “science”
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1 mile an hour for hairy legs is incredible! Has anyone else found this to be the case?
When you are in a group the air is so turbulent that all t
he shapes that work in a wind tunnel suddenly won’t the same. Being in a group is not like being in a wind tunnel but less, there’s up drafts, side drafts, probably even ones that are coming down from off the back of the rider in front. I’ve attached a little diagram which describes what can happen to aero shapes at different angles of air flow.
Threads like this are great - it tells me there are still plenty of people that are not taking free aero watts - which is great for riders like me not pushing 350W FTPs to keep riding above our power class 
Can we also figure out how to create a marketing conspiracy theory to convince all of our local competitors that weight doesn’t matter either? I mean, it’s practically meaningless on the flats and only a few seconds on most climbs anyway - so why not just throw some lead fishing weights in your seat tube too?
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