Did the plans change?

yep - I understand that (sadly as a Wahoo user), but was wondering if I’ll get the AT benefit and adaptive suggestions for the 2 remaining indoor workouts pulled from the plan? Right now I dont have workouts scheduled in the calendar so theres nothing for it to adapt and I simply create and use my own. I only see the results and progressions but obviously dont get suggested adaptions that way.

Yes! Until we account for those unstructured outside rides though, the adaptations wont be able to speak to the full scope of the work you’re doing is the only downfall. This is why this feature is HIGH on our priority list!!

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I’ve mentioned this in other threads. I started FasCat’s SSB2/SSB3 in February 2020 and despite doing shorter intervals went out and did something like a 1x50 threshold effort the end of March 2020, just nine days after a field test and FTP bump. Personally I’ve come to believe the minimum effective dose is a lot lower than many think. And that aerobic endurance (zone2) is underrated and continues to be thought of as boring and junk miles because who wants to go slow?

Here is some of my n=1 data that shows going heavy on zone2 over the last year:

Color coding:

  • green is zone2/zone1
  • yellow is tempo, sweet spot, and lower threshold
  • red is threshold and above

A bit of leap of faith to go close to doing ~80% zone2 work. And it took a lot of patience - seriously who enjoys going outside for 2-3 hours and slow rolling on the flats at 15-17 miles per hour? Easier to do that outside vs inside, but the struggle is real #ZoneDiscipline

As an aerobic hard gainer, I was bouncing off the walls happy this past weekend after going out and absolutely smashing a climb:

my coach reviewed today and bumped FTP to 264 and we both believe this is just the beginning. In my mind that climb, & other recent short threshold efforts, served to reinforce the value of all the aerobic endurance work. Subjectively I feel this past last year has established a deeper foundation than the one achieved in early 2017 (leading to ~280W FTP). But memory is a funny thing, and while some power:HR comparison data is compelling there is conflicting data. Time will tell.

Coming full circle, about a year ago I came to the realization that ‘less is more’ = less intervals, more max efforts, and ‘fresh is faster’ = more zone2 supports higher power outputs. My data from averaging ~8 hour/week continues to reinforce that view.

The new TrainerRoad plans look better to my eyes. Experiment and see for yourself if less is more, if fresh is faster. Seems to me that if you’ve got a near term event then stay the course. Otherwise folks should give the new plans a chance. And if you mostly train indoors, do a block or two or three and then be sure to go outside/Zwift-not-Erg/RGT-not-Erg and put down some really hard efforts to test your fitness.


amen! Preaching to the converted on z2 benefits! My year so far…

Screenshot 2021-05-11 at 21.32.39

I am however guilty of falling into the ‘more is more’ trap when it comes to time and number of reps of intervals on those days. Something to work on…

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Have you been at ~8 hours/wk over the course of all the plans on that chart?

No. It’s an incomplete picture.

For sure. In my “training” there are at least a half dozen variables that ought to be captured in any snapshot of my progress. Still, it’s a really interesting chart. I appreciate you sharing it and your experiences.

In the next day or two I’ll try and capture some of the other stuff. Something like 2016 was 370 hours, then 2020 was 340 hours, … and the AACC podcast led me to believe I could reduce hours, so 2018 was less, 2019 had challenges, etc etc.

How long is your longest Z2 ride (duration)? You still need overload to force adaptations. At Z2 that means well more than 2 hours at a time for the long weekly ride. Would love to do that but family commitments limit my weekend rides to max 2 hours, and mostly before the household awakes.

2 hours mid-week and whatever I can swing on the weekends. Bad allergies this spring so my weekend (Fri/Sat) has been 5-6 hours of z2 plus “stuff”

Looks like HV XCO Specialty plans have been tweaked again from their initial rollout on May 10th. TSS continues to get lower. Leading into my “A” race I’m just trusting these new plans :crossed_fingers:. If nothing else I’ll be fresher!

I didn’t get a full comparison of the weeks before “updating plan”, but I noticed my workout this past Thursday went from Lion Rock to The Chimneys +2… They’re very similar workouts when it comes to TSS, intensity and intended adaptation. But Chimneys +2 lacks a few mid-set micro-recoveries and corresponding additional hard-starts and set-finishers.

Screen Shot 2021-05-16 at 7.57.31 AM

Correction these were the Saturday rides.

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@IvyAudrain , I’ve got a Garmin, I want unstructured outdoor ride “credit” before anyone with a Weeho! gets credit for anything they do outside. :crazy_face:

IE, I commute on my number 1 bike, and its probably not much, 18-25 tss in 24-32 minutes each way, but I sometimes hit a huge spike in a sprint. Or my 2-3 hour riverside path ride (still with a PM) has to count for something in the “endurance” zone, right?

AT seems like a great big-data problem solver, but for this “LV” guy, it doesn’t make sense until it takes into account my “extra” riding - even if I don’t have a blue target to match (which would be nearly impossible in the outdoor environment I live in) the time in zone numbers have to be usable, right?

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I think this statement goes a bit far. AT does still work and make sense without knowing about your extra riding - but it will be even better once it does. Right?


You are entitled to your thoughts. I don’t think I’m taking anything even a tiny bit far. Maybe I’m an abnormal TR user, but I stand by my statement, and here’s why:

AT doesn’t work as intended if 40-60% or more of my weekly saddle time isn’t included in its data analysis because I don’t have a blue bar in front of me. Its not practical to complete my commute with a power target, and even most of outdoor recreational rides don’t have more than a 4-6 minute stretch of continuous pedaling. Not including the data from those rides (between 40-60% of my weekly saddle time most of the year) makes it impossible for AT/ML to “make sense” of the rest of my week. TSS isn’t a perfect number, and HR isn’t perfect and avg power isn’t perfect, but big-data analysis has to find an overlay/algorithm that at least weighs these rides to some extent.

I’m a pretty mid-range guy, but if I fail a VO2 workout and the system thinks I failed it because of the previous structured workout two days earlier, and not the fact that, on an unscheduled day, I had half day of work and turned my normal 28 minute commute into a three hour tempo ride (because I felt fine and it was sunny and I could) and then AT/ML reduces my VO2 workouts for a number of weeks, that’s actually not working for me. As I understand it, the surveys don’t have a “I failed this workout because of a 3 hour tempo ride that AT/ML knows about but doesn’t yet know how [have permission] to compute” option.

That’s forcing me to override the system for how long? At least with a baseline plan (non-adaptive) I can simply bump the next similar workout down a notch or intentionally skip an interval here and there. Readjusting in near perpetuity based on 1 data point- the miserably failed workout and no including data surrounding that data point doesn’t make sense for me. With AT I have the option to bump up, but the failed workout would still weigh me down until how many completed VO2 workouts? Surely not a single completed as intended workout, and probably not even a single “reach” or whatever terminology VO2 workout.


I think the point that @jazir1979 s making is that the subjective survey will theoretically account for your extra TSS. It technically will help account for a lot of hidden or intangible variables because it is purely subjective. If that added TSS ends up making a workout hard, you can tell it that. It doesn’t necessarily need all the information so practically and meticulously laid out to serve you the right stuff from what I can tell. It doesn’t know my current life stress, how challenging the past week of work has been or how much sleep I’m getting, but it has still served me great workouts that felt appropriate for my current abilities and progression.


Yeah, I get this, but it sounds like in your situation you are still doing TR workouts either indoors or with the Garmin. Sure, AT won’t know about your extra stress, but it will know how you perform on your workouts and will be able to adapt future workouts accordingly. Surely that’s still really useful.

I think it’s more of a problem right now for people doing Wahoo workouts outside (until that issue is fixed).

I thought the options were ~Yes, I failed this workout~ ~this workout was really hard~ and ~Life=no I didn’t fail this workout~. I don’t recall anything mentioned in the rollout/podcasts of "Yes, I failed this workout because [I rode too much yesterday or I squatted and deadlifted yesterday], please see spikey yellow line from outdoor rides the last three days.

Yeah, I’m indoors on the trainer for the three LV rides a week, more filler rides in the winter etc. But since March I’ve been outside for commutes as often as not, and weekend rides as often as life allows.

Meaning, AT should be able to look at my day(s) before a failed ride, see the outlying crazy effort or long ride and apply it to the recommendation for the next ride. And not assume that because I rode on Monday it was the same as my previous Monday’s ride.

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If you successfully complete, you score it from 1 to 5. If you end up scoring an endurance ride you can usually do no problem as a 4 or a 5, it will adjust.

In the case of failure, there are two surveys. One for cutting the workout completely short and a second for struggling, but making it through. Each of those has several options as to why you feel it was too difficult or why you cut short, including Sleep, Nutrition, Lack of Time and Fatigue (which is what I’d choose for your use case). I don’t have a screenshot of them, unfortunately, but there are enough responses that most anything can be covered.

It simply doesn’t need to know all the hyper specifics at this point to be effective. To be truly optimal and perfected? That’s a different question entirely. I’d say it’s effective at this point, but not optimal. So in my mind, it is far from worthless, unless of course you do all your workouts outdoors on a Wahoo head unit. In that case, nothing would be actually tracking against your PLs right now. But if you’re doing things indoors and some outdoors, it’s passable. It has been for me the past month or two of using it.