Amateur Doping real problem?

Racing
325

Yes, it is.

Boston qualifying isn’t just make a time and you’re in, absent of other people. There is a minimum time cutoff to qualify, then there are tiers to race entry for Boston. If someone on PEDs makes a qualifying time that is in the 5:00 range faster than a clean athlete’s time, they will have the opportunity to take a registration spot. That will eventually trickle down to where you have a racer who qualified but can’t get a spot because the race is full.

I’m quite certain this happens now, and it would upset me if I knew someone did this.

For the podium, yes, it matters. For finishing the event in any top position, yes, it matters. Things like prize money, prestige, sponsorships, qualifying spots… upgrade points, etc., all of those things matter to people. Dopers are defrauding others from all of those.

Now, if you are on TRT, and you run to the finish line in 2:48 but stop and exit the course before being counted as a finisher… or you’re on TRT and you enter the criterium but sit up and don’t compete the last lap or field sprint…

I personally wouldn’t have a problem with that. In fact, I’d probably applaud it.

As a former active duty service member for 20 years, I have a problem with reservists who take advantage of Ironman’s “active duty” definition by doing their two week active period each year during the time of events that have special qualification opportunities for active duty servicemembers. In one case, there is a man who is a full-time triathlon coach and military reservist who races Kona and 70.3 worlds qualifying events on “active duty” to try and get special qualifying spots. I raced against him one year when I had returned from a deployment - meaning four months of running slowly on a shipboard treadmill, riding a lifecycle, and not swimming at all. Meanwhile, he was able to train many hours and was completely immersed in triathlon as head coach of a collegiate team and running his own coaching business while fulfilling a military obligation for one weekend each month.

I no longer interact with him nor his business nor would I ever shoot an athlete his way, even though what he does is technically not “illegal”. In my opinion, he is defrauding others.

This is one of those things like racing on prescribed TRT where I am entitled to my opinion, and can pick and choose who I denigrate and who I don’t. My opinion does not matter at all to that coach, I’m quite certain, but my ethics prevent me from ever trying to skirt a system clearly set up for one thing by seeking a cheap, easy way out to get what I want.

I’m either naturally good enough through my own hard work based on the constraints of my life, or I am not. Anything less than that cheapens any accomplishment.

Racing on TRT or other PED is the easy way out. I do not respect it nor condone it, but I also do not think everyone who beats me is doping, either. I generally don’t even think about it.

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326

Would you be upset if you missed the time cutoff by a minute and someone else ran an easier course? Downhill course? Had better weather? Has more money to buy a better bike, more time to train? Can afford a sauna at home and or altitude chamber, can afford a top of the line coach? Has connections to companies and people that can get them into those? Is famous enough to get in? Can buy a spot in ebay?

We are talking about amateur racing being all heroic about placing into another amateur race when there are many variables that determine who gets in. It’s not a level playing field and PED’s are just one of them and gets all the focus.

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327

TRT is what? Taking a drug? Injection? Gel under your armpits.

New knees are major surgery and rehab. I imagine the number of old dudes getting their knees replaced to podium at the local time trial is almost zero. I can’t just walk into my doctors office and tell them to replace my knees.

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328

Those aren’t against the rules…to me it is plain and simple. If it is against the rules then you are cheating, if not (and that includes TUE) then it’s fine. Excuses, comparison etc just don’t cut it for me. It is cheating pure and simple. Now, people may disagree whether it should be against the rules and that is a different discussion, but if you participate in an event then you agree to obey the rules of that event.

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329

Any of those against the rules?

No (except the eBay thing, that’s pretty clearly not right).

I don’t like it when Ironman, et al., gift entries to celebrities (such as Hines Ward) but I understand why they do it. It’s marketing; it’s not unethical or against the rules, and it likely doesn’t cost anyone else a spot on the pier as they set those aside in advance. Those companies have the right to admit people for marketing purposes, and I personally know one athlete who’s only Kona appearance was a Navy marketing promotion. No problem with that; it’s the company’s prerogative, even if I don’t like it.

I really don’t get why this is hard to grasp. We’re talking about something that is expressly prohibited by the rules of these sports and events… and you’re comparing it to more training time or affording hyperbaric chambers? Come on, Alen.

Exactly. The fact is, it is against the rules. So if you choose to participate while on TRT without a TUE, you’re cheating no different than if you cut the course or put a motor on your bike. It really is as simple as that.

Whether it should be against the rules is a different matter. But you don’t get to pick and choose which rules you follow without consequences. Sure, you can cheat… you get caught, you pay the price.

Recovery and rehab time from that kind of surgery is on the order of more than a year… IF you’re able to regain your original strength back at all. TRT… exactly. Take the band-aid off, I guess?

This has really deteriorated down to discussing a bunch of red herrings.

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330

It’s not against the rules because they don’t want it to be against the rules. Not because they care about fairness. It’s a business for them 1st and foremost. The rules are as arbitrary as the enforcement of the rules. If people started making a lot of noise about downhill courses for example, you would have a rule against it.

If they wanted fairness, they would have it like the Olympic trials. Everyone qualifies for a race and everyone races the same conditions in the same course.

And some of those things are not enforceable. They can’t tell you what bike to bring. They can in cycling but the last time I raced, my tri bike was not legal for the TT. They didn’t care because I was no threat for the race. They just wanted my money.

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331

Just because organisers don’t care/check doesn’t make it ‘not against the rules’ or ‘ok’! :joy::joy::joy:. It still is against the rules and cheating whatever you tell yourself. And nobody ever said rules were necessary ‘fair’

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332

Because I make a distinction between competing and participating. When the rules were made, they were written for high level athletes. Shivious said it very eloquently. They were not designed for people with dad bods. It’s not black and white but many shades of gray. They realize it and don’t enforce it. All these accolades that people compete for are all artificially created to entice people to partake further in the business.
You take a race like Boston and Kona which is no different than any other course or race. Slap some prestige to it like stamping a Gucci symbol on a regular shirt. And then have people go nuts for them. I can’t be the only that see through all the sherades.

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333

Then don’t enter a race if want to ‘participate’ whilst breaking the rules. Just skip half course if gets bit hard too. Loads of rides/events available which are not races and don’t require following doping rules, people can just do those.

I can’t go to the Olympics and just run 100m of the 400m race then skip to the finish because ‘i just wanted to participate’ so cheating is ok.

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334

You didn’t make that distinction until just now, and I already answered above.

Now, that you don’t personally value those things I mentioned does not mean others don’t. And this is the struggle I’m having with this discussion: it’s the fact that those who do not particularly care about certain things seem to lack the empathy to relate to those who do, and therefore believe that their concerns are not only unwarranted, but also therefore entirely unjustified.

My last piece for you is to reiterate what I said before: I don’t care if a PED user participates; I absolutely do care if they compete in any way that impacts something that means something to someone else who is clean. For me, it’s as simple as that. You use TRT and finish DFL in your local triathlon, I do not care one bit.

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335

I do care if they participate. But why are people arguing or trying to justify this. It’s really very simple!

  1. When you sign up for a organizational race license and participate in sanctioned events, you sign/initial/agree to play by the rules.

  2. Race organizations try to keep things fair. WADA/USADA/ETC… have a list of prohibited substances that could enhance performance and enforce the rules with testing.

  3. If you use any of the prohibited substances while participating in sanctioned events or while licensed, you are cheating.

If you show up to a ROAD BIKE only race and someone shows up on a TT bike and wins. Is that fair?

:slight_smile:

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336

This idea that if you’re not winning you’re only participating and not racing is f’ing insulting. Sorry, but it needs to be said.

There are many ways to race, you might race your friends every week, even though you only finish mid-pack together. You might race not getting lapped or the time cutoff. If you’re in a state of mind that your time and speed matters, you are racing. You can off course also just be there to participate, but you can’t define that by looking at finishing positions.

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337

Absolutely. To some people, finishing top twenty in a mtb or cx race might be a dream come true. In fact when I was competing at national level, it was just that for me. One year in nat cx I finished the season with an average position of 21st. Maybe a couple of dopers were in there ahead of me. I don’t actually care that much but I would have told them to get lost to their faces if I’d found out.

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338

At regional level I had 20+ podiums but never managed a win. Never a problem as I was very friendly with my competitors and still enjoy their company to this day. Would be incredibly surprised to find they were cheating. We laughed too much for that. I don’t think any of us were that up ourselves.

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339

Doesn’t really matter what distinction you may want to make, if you enter an event that has rules then you agree to abide by those rules, and other entrants have a reasonable expectation that you do your best to do so. Sport literally doesn’t exist without rules or laws.

They don’t enforce it because they don’t have the funds to do so, not because nobody cares. We often don’t have timing chips, or state of the art finish line cameras capturing frames to a thousandth of a second either. Not because we don’t care about course cutting or who crosses the line first, but because amateur racing doesn’t have the resources so we have to make do with people being honest and maybe a guy at the finish line with an iPhone videoing it. Same with doping, the cost of randomly testing any meaningful sample of racers would put the cost of race entries through the roof. The people who do get caught are normally targeted because somebody has a tip off that they’re on the juice.

If you’re talking about Kona and Boston then maybe it’s a business. The crits, TTs and road races I do certainly aren’t artificially creating any accolades to grow their business. They’re put on by people and clubs who love the sport, wouldn’t exist without volunteers (who are usually racers or ex-racers themselves), and often barely break even.

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340

I agree

341

I can’t believe it took this long for someone to say this.

Everyone participating in a race matters. Race tactics are devised and implemented based on everyone in the race. There may be three podium spots, but they get decided by most of the others in the race.

On the main topic:

If you pin a number on, it is assumed you agreed to and are following all of the rules of the sanctioning body. If you aren’t, you are cheating.

If you don’t like the rules, we can have that discussion, but let’s not conflate the current rules’ “fairness” to aging athletes with what is currently against the rules.

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342

Only for certain races do podium spots “get decided by most of the others”. Crits for sure and some road races. But something like your average gravel race where about 10% of the field shoots off the front from the start and are truly racing for podium meanwhile 80%-90% of the field are way back and having zero impact on those shooting for podium.

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343

But they do impact someone trying to get top 20/50/100/half of field (delete as appropriate to goals!)

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344

It doesn’t matter if they impact the race for the podium or not, they can still be “racing” and it’s insulting to call them mere “participants” (and then, as some above have done, deduct that the rules of the race shouldn’t matter to them).

Yes, you can turn up to a gravel race and just go to participate and have a good day out, like Sagan did at Unbound. But there will have been many, many, who finished behind him and still would have considered themselves to be racing. They will have trained very hard, spend months thinking about their bike, and fought for every position they could get. They went there to race, and not just to participate.

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