# Am I making the right tradeoff here? **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Tags:** recovery\ **Created:** [September 20, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124 "2024-09-20T16:17:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![plasko](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/plasko/32/132165_2.png) [@plasko](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/plasko)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/1 "2024-09-20T16:17:29Z")
This is my first TR training program–I’m on a low volume masters program. I’m getting close to the end of my program, in the BUILD phase and have started failing Threshold workouts. I have a VO2Max workout Tuesday and a Threshold workout Thursday, and because these Threshold workouts have felt really hard (but the VO2Max ones have been much more doable) I’ve started pushing my Thursday ride to Friday to get some extra recovery. This has felt a little better and I’m completing the workouts, but I wonder if I’m messing with the algorithm too much and should just let TR calibrate against the days on my plan and let the Threshold workouts be easier. The thing I guess I wonder about is this: Is there a benefit to going into the Threshold workouts with more fatigue (say, to drive more adaptation), or more rested to complete harder workouts and hedge against failing them? VO2Max 5.3 Threshold is 2.4 ---
**Author:** ![Dono](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/dono/32/153845_2.png) [@Dono](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Dono)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 4:34pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/2 "2024-09-20T16:34:39Z")
I would say being consistent in completing your workouts is more important coming into them with fatigue. Have you tried going into plan builder and changing the days your workouts are on from there? That way TR will know that’s how you want it set up, and you won’t have to mess with the algorithm. If you mess with the algorithm less, it will catch on and lower your progression rate or FTP, because consistency is most important. Anyway, just make sure you are fueling the workouts right, and fueling off the bike enough, and prioritizing going easy on the easy rides. You will make the most gains completing your hard workouts, not going harder in the easy ones. (remember Fitness= workout+recovery) Good luck with your training! ---
**Author:** ![dsirrom](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/dsirrom/32/132165_2.png) [@dsirrom](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/dsirrom)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 4:35pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/3 "2024-09-20T16:35:42Z")
I faced a similar challenge a while ago. Do what works best for you. The plan builder allows for you to adjust which days cover hard / moderate workouts anyway, so with that in mind I think you’re approach is sensible and unlikely to cause any significant problem. In fact, given the goal is to properly complete the workouts so you stimulate the overcompensation required, it makes sense to tailor a procession of workouts across your week that best enables that to happen consistently and allows you to build the TSS and / or intensity over time at a steady pace. Best way to find out is try it, and see how you get on 👍🏻👍🏻 ---
**Author:** ![ArHu74](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/arhu74/32/177458_2.png) [@ArHu74](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/ArHu74)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 4:40pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/4 "2024-09-20T16:40:07Z")
If you are failing level 5-6 threshold workouts your FTP is set too high (and if you are failing level 3 threshold workouts your FTP is set way too high) and you should do a proper long form FTP test (20 minutes or the Kolie Moore test) or something is wrong with your power meter. Anyway even if your PM is off you would still have to do a long form FTP test ---
**Author:** ![Helvellyn](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/helvellyn/32/95205_2.png) [@Helvellyn](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Helvellyn)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/5 "2024-09-20T16:50:59Z")
> [@plasko](#): > > The thing I guess I wonder about is this: You don’t get more adaptations if your workout feels harder because you’re fatigued. The fresher the better. ---
**Author:** ![Jolyzara](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jolyzara/32/97333_2.png) [@Jolyzara](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Jolyzara)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 5:00pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/6 "2024-09-20T17:00:07Z")
> [@ArHu74](#): > > If you are failing level 5-6 threshold workouts your FTP is set too high (and if you are failing level 3 threshold workouts your FTP is set way too high) and you should do a proper long form FTP test (20 minutes or the Kolie Moore test) or something is wrong with your power meter. Anyway even if your PM is off you would still have to do a long form FTP test He is not failing due to intensity, he is failing because of lack of recovery from the previous workout. OP, there is nothing magic about doing threshold under fatigue. Take the extra recovery, it is better to complete a workout then to cut it early due to fatigue. ---
**Author:** ![ArHu74](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/arhu74/32/177458_2.png) [@ArHu74](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/ArHu74)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 5:10pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/7 "2024-09-20T17:10:59Z")
He’s at level 2.4. Threshold workouts at that level should feel like a breeze even when fatigued. 10 minutes @ threshold should feel like you could keep that up for a very long time. I don’t do trainerroad anymore but my program often has me do low cadence workouts 4x10 mins @60rpm and 90-100% FTP after the hardest hard day, these workouts are not hard but relaxing although requiring a bit of concentration ---
**Author:** ![Jolyzara](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jolyzara/32/97333_2.png) [@Jolyzara](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Jolyzara)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 6:02pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/8 "2024-09-20T18:02:43Z")
I would argue your FTP is too low. Threshold, for lack of better terminology… lets say is your pace ranging from 40-70 min… is not an "easy” effort and certainly not one that should feel relaxing after your hardest day IMO. But that’s me… ---
**Author:** ![ArHu74](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/arhu74/32/177458_2.png) [@ArHu74](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/ArHu74)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 6:11pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/9 "2024-09-20T18:11:03Z")
Let’s say TTE is 40 minutes then 30 minutes @ FTP should feel like RPE 8-9 not 10, 20 minutes should feel like 7-8, and 10 minutes like 6-7 ---
**Author:** ![TrekCentury](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/trekcentury/32/123801_2.png) [@TrekCentury](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/TrekCentury)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/10 "2024-09-20T18:36:51Z")
> [@plasko](#): > > I’ve started pushing my Thursday ride to Friday to get some extra recovery. This has felt a little better and I’m completing the workouts, but I wonder if I’m messing with the algorithm too much and should just let TR calibrate against the days on my plan and let the Threshold workouts be easier. Rest is best. Ai is Ai It knows what works for most but not all. This is why TR lets you adjust just about everything. ---
**Author:** ![plasko](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/plasko/32/132165_2.png) [@plasko](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/plasko)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/11 "2024-09-20T21:35:54Z")
This seems like the best way to finish out the plan. I have been wondering if I should be riding this fatigue dragon block to block, or just trying to space things for the best quality individual workouts possible, and what I’m reading here is that the quality of the workout is the most important things. So I will structure my week to support optimal workouts rather than just see how tired I can get in a block. ---
**Author:** ![plasko](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/plasko/32/132165_2.png) [@plasko](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/plasko)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/12 "2024-09-20T21:42:20Z")
I’m using the AI FTP predictor. It has updated I think 3 times since I started. My FTP is pretty low (210) so yeah maybe it’s off. My V02Max workouts are going great, I almost did an alternative VO2Max workout this week to put me above 6 just to see if I could do it, so maybe that’s messing up the AI? ---
**Author:** ![plasko](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/plasko/32/132165_2.png) [@plasko](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/plasko)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/13 "2024-09-20T21:43:50Z")
Thanks this is the crux of the question. ---
**Author:** ![ArHu74](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/arhu74/32/177458_2.png) [@ArHu74](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/ArHu74)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 6:56am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/14 "2024-09-21T06:56:57Z")
I don’t have a TR subscription anymore but looking through my workouts on strava I believe mono is around 2.4 threshold workout, which consists of 4 sets of 2x2min @ 95% and 2x1 min @ 105% or 6 minutes @ 98% average. That should be easy, really easy if your FTP is set correctly. But you are probably a very anaerobic rider so you can more easily do shorter intervals at higher intensity which will make the aiftp and ramp test overestimate your ftp ---
**Author:** ![OreoCookie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/oreocookie/32/8298_2.png) [@OreoCookie](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/OreoCookie)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 7:50am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/15 "2024-09-21T07:50:40Z")
> [@plasko](#): > > I have a VO2Max workout Tuesday and a Threshold workout Thursday, and because these Threshold workouts have felt really hard (but the VO2Max ones have been much more doable) I’ve started pushing my Thursday ride to Friday to get some extra recovery. I run into similar problems when I am not rested enough. In addition to pushing your Thursday workout to Friday, you could also select an easier Vo2max workout. Even though you _could_ finish a harder VO2max workout, evidently you incur too much fatigue. When it comes to recovery, sleep is the first thing I would look at. If you get less than 7 hours on average, this is a problem. Ideally you want 8. > [@ArHu74](#): > > If you are failing level 5-6 threshold workouts your FTP is set too high (and if you are failing level 3 threshold workouts your FTP is set way too high) and you should do a proper long form FTP test (20 minutes or the Kolie Moore test) or something is wrong with your power meter. No, @plasko is just starting with structured training and those FTP tests are not suitable for beginners. Kolie Moore’s test protocol is way too complicated and you need to know what power to aim for with the 20-minute test. Even if his FTP is set too high, other tests are not necessary, simply knock down the difficulty of a workout by 2 % or so and see how you fare. Then adjust your FTP manually as needed. > [@ArHu74](#): > > He’s at level 2.4. Threshold workouts at that level should feel like a breeze even when fatigued. What @plasko describes is lack of recovery in my opinion. If with one extra day you can finish the workouts, then those workouts are _not_ too difficult or that his FTP is necessarily set too high. > [@ArHu74](#): > > That should be easy, really easy if your FTP is set correctly. In isolation yes. With accumulated fatigue and insufficient recovery, you can fail workouts that under ideal circumstances would be a piece of cake. ---
**Author:** ![MI-XC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mi-xc/32/12993_2.png) [@MI-XC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/MI-XC)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 11:44am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/16 "2024-09-21T11:44:11Z")
> [@ArHu74](#): > > Let’s say TTE is 40 minutes then 30 minutes @ FTP should feel like RPE 8-9 not 10, 20 minutes should feel like 7-8, and 10 minutes like 6-7 You’re doing sweet spot. If I recall the story correctly, it goes somethibg like 10 minutes into the hour record (FTP) a pro stated he wanted to quit and thought theres no way he could continue… but did and finished. Sounds like he was pretty close to a RPE of 9-10. ---
**Author:** ![Pbase](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/pbase/32/969_2.png) [@Pbase](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Pbase)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 2:47pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/17 "2024-09-21T14:47:29Z")
Are you saying that people should always feel like quitting after 10 minutes at Threshold or their FTP is too low? ---
**Author:** ![ArHu74](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/arhu74/32/177458_2.png) [@ArHu74](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/ArHu74)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/18 "2024-09-21T18:37:41Z")
> [@OreoCookie](#): > > Kolie Moore’s test protocol is way too complicated and you need to know what power to aim for with the 20-minute test. I don’t have trainerroad anymore but I believe the tests are available as custom workouts. Iirc they start out with 20 minutes @ 95%. OP could start with his current FTP > [@OreoCookie](#): > > What @plasko describes is lack of recovery in my opinion. If with one extra day you can finish the workouts, then those workouts are _not_ too difficult or that his FTP is necessarily set too high. I get it, for sprints and vo2max stuff you need to be fresh but 8-10 minute intervals around FTP!? ---
**Author:** ![MrBirchling](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mrbirchling/32/116855_2.png) [@MrBirchling](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/MrBirchling)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/19 "2024-09-21T19:36:22Z")
One question: did you do a Base phase first. ---
**Author:** ![plasko](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/plasko/32/132165_2.png) [@plasko](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/plasko)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2024, 8:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124/20 "2024-09-21T20:36:49Z")
I did Master general base low volume 1, 2 and 3. Now I’m 3 weeks into the Build phase of LV sustained power. [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/am-i-making-the-right-tradeoff-here/96124.md?page=2)