Alternatives to over/unders

@megsambit and I were just discussing this: she gets a couple of points of HR recovery during the unders, but I don’t. It’s more like HR stops going up during them.

Yeah, I get recovery too. Plus my HR lag means that its only really high again close to the peak of each over, most of the increase I’m still ‘recovered’ as far as HR goes. It then increases to rise a bit after the peak, but because power drops, it doesn’t feel as bad.

Maybe I just have numb legs or something, but I don’t notice any muscular discomfort in OUs. Just increasing respiratory distress and systemic feelings of illness and impending doom that I associate with above-threshold work. I only get any noticeable burning with repeated anaerobic efforts, all-out VO2 efforts, or a ramp test (although usually it’s not the limiter on the ramp test).

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I wonder if the guys could do a thorough discussion on over-unders in a future podcast along the same lines as that for VO2max in AACC-252?

@jpowers - I think many of the near threshold and above workouts affect us all in subtly different ways depending on what our weaknesses are. The trick seems to be figuring out how to address those weaknesses.

Lactate lottery winner.

What’s your aerobic fitness history (e.g. Endurance zone volume) over the last ~5 years?

That’s funny. I’m the exact opposite. I don’t feel overly stressed breathing wise during over-unders. It’s all my legs that feel in the edge of failure the whole time.

I don’t remember this being the case last year…BOTH legs and lungs were on the verge of failure the whole time. I think my extended base phase (TB 1,2,3, then SSB) has make things much easier respiration wise.

Legs still betray me though LOL. That said…I am hoping that all of this sweet spot and threshold work will quickly improve what I think is my main limiter right now…muscular endurance. Here’s hoping anyway…

…going to do Pasisade in an hour. I’ll report back and let you guys know if I’m still alive :grimacing:

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I “did” McAdie +1 today. I lost my motivation halfway through set 3 of 4 lol

While this isn’t the case right now, in the past, the automatic FTP model in Golden Cheetah has estimated that my CP is ~5-10% lower than TR tested FTP, but estimates a W’ of 30-35 kJ.

What metric is useful here? I have total time, but data besides that is a little spotty.
2015 and earlier: zero
2016: 165 hours, mostly aerobic; ~3 W/kg at end of year
2017: 220 hours, mostly aerobic; ~3.4 W/kg
2018: 310 hours, mixed; ~3.5 W/kg
2019: 320 hours, mixed; not much more time than 2018, but faster; ~3.6 W/kg

Can’t find a good source of time-in-zone summaries, but I don’t have outdoor power data going back more than a year and some, anyway. The following 2019 summary from intervals.icu is probably roughly representative of 2018; prior to that was aerobic plus trying to survive climbs and group rides.

image

That could be why you’re now “good” at O/Us, lots of previous aerobic/endurance zone time. I’ll search for the source but I recall Z2 and Threshold work develop your lactate clearance capabilities.

Ok, I am so, so happy now. Just had by far my best performance on any overunder workout. Finished palisade with no backpedals, no breaks, no power drops. Only felt like I was really at the limit and on the verge of failure on the 5th interval (whereas normally I’m there about the midpoint of the workout).

I’m wondering if my volume bump starting a couple weeks ago is paying dividends. Noticeably more manageable.

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This.

This.

When reducing intensity you might just try reducing intensity for the under parts. Q&A episode #80 (That Triathlon Show of @Mikael_Eriksson, highly recommended) has a note on this.

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When something is hard…it just takes work to get through it. You will be better for it.

Lots of things to check as to why so hard for you but start easy and get there.
Reduce intensity. Do shorter versions. See what you can handle. You will get better.

Totally agree with this. A lot of coaches make the unders 90% instead of 95%.

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Yes. You want to have lactate in the system but then also ensure to have a lactate clearing stimulus. If you’re too close to MLSS during the unders the purpose of the workout is not archived.

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In the last block I have done both versions: 3x20 90÷/110% (30s) and 95%/110÷(30s). At 90% you basically feel lactate is “eaten” by your body very fast. Ar 95% it was hard workout - doable and my HR was lowering during unders, but it was a lot more taxating to aerobic system and muscles, when at 90% only legs were tired (I know there is relation between two but I am simplifying).

So 90% unders make the workout a lot more “user friendly” and the recovery is faster. I suppose that overall benefits are quite similar.

ya, that is how you build up aerobic capacity and increase ability to consume lactate as fuel. Improve mitochondria density/size/content in both slow twitch and fast oxidative glycolitic (FOG) type 2a fast twitch. Slow twitch are handled by low-intensity work, and higher intensity work for the FOG fibers. Short high intensity efforts provide high adaptation for mito content.

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i would keep after those 8m intervals and bump up to 105%, then keep extending out. Also, if you’ve considered trying longer sweet spot or extensive aerobic work, then circling back to intensive aerobic, that might help!

you’re prob just really good at hitting the short hard stuff @ 120% but struggle on more TT style efforts; not a bad thing, but awesome to find something to work on!!

a good time to do it!

good luck!

I did on/off workouts this past winter, which seem to have built my ftp a bit. You can vary the intensity to whatever you feel you can do. I wound up doing 40/20s x 10 (40 secs hard 20secs ez or off). The 40 secs was at around 5 minute power (usually ~23-28% o FTP/hour power), the 20 secs was soft pedaling/almost nothing. 10 reps followed by 5 minute rest and repeat if you are up to it. I started with one set, then worked up to 2 sets. Initially, to ease into the 2nd set, I reduced the 40sec power by about 6% for the 1st set, then used 5 minute power for the second set. Depending on your fitness, you can do more or less, intensity and/or reps. I would also do some of the reps at low cadence (same target power) to mix it up a bit. These workouts were hard, but not that awful; and it was a good workout in relatively short time. You can vary this many ways (e.g. make it a 30/30 with increased power or not).

Yeah, I view these as a style of VO2max workout. I really like them and would gladly replace many things with them. :slight_smile: Another design is something like what is in workouts like Pierce, where the rest part of the intervals is around sweet spot power.

Those are really hard for me to motivate myself to complete. I know they are good, but I can stay motivated to complete the 40/20s, which wind up a pretty hard workout. Maybe not as good as over unders, but less awful.

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