AI FTP Detection Update

Outside is already part of the assessments for AI FTP.

It won’t be part of the post ride “hook” where you might see an increase until we get WLV2 out (I think…)

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This really begs for an advanced setting where the user could bias the system either towards FTP gains or towards PL gains.

I don’t think you could ever get to a “pure” ML system, as that would require knowing a riders multi-year goals / aspirations. E.g., for me, at some point I’d like to do the Oregon Trail Gravel Grinder. If a ML system knew that was a goal / aspiration of mine to do within say the next 3 years, and I’d prioritize it over events between now and then, the system might prescribe a completely trade-off of increasing FTP vs. increasing PL.

Right now (or when I think I’m okay to start seriously training again), especially trying to come back from COVID, I’d prioritize raising my FTP over PL. But say 8 months prior to when I’d theoretically do the Oregon Trail Gravel Grinder, I’d prioritize increasing PL over increasing FTP.



A slider as one of the questions during Plan Builder would be useful. Hours, Experience, FTP->PL.

Also, the colour for annotations thing just came out. Pretty impressed with the speed of picking up the suggestion and implementation.

I don’t want to be prompted after every workout to change my FTP. I’m already prompted often enough to “adapt plan.” Every dang day for an eFTP change is kind of silly. How would that interact with the PLs?

Learn more, document, validate, then expand the triggers, please.

Call me curmudgeon, I trust big data in a population set, but I don’t trust AT enough after FTP changes when it compares to “knowing myself” to double down and trust AT after every single workout. To quote everyone on the podcast, “Maybe you had a bad day” or “maybe everything went right and…”

I don’t want to have to reject stuff after every planned/workout ride. I already have to accept or decline adaptations often enough.

But not for PL, yet, right?

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Workout Levels version 2

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  • The AI FTP will not actually be offered after each and every workout.

TR will look at your history each time and take all it’s calculations into account, and then decide IF this time is an appropriate time to offer a new FTP.

  • If it’s not enough to trigger a new FTP, you won’t see anything different.
  • If it is enough to trigger a new FTP, that’s when it will be offered.
  • Right, not until Workout Level Version 2 is released.
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Doing tests is not easy (doing the test can wear you out for the workouts and doing the workout can wear you out to be able to test well, etc) so very hard to have continuous testing influence how the workouts should go.

Xert sort of does continuous testing in that your fitness signature can change at any moment and workouts are based on your fitness signature but don’t think anything else does this

So what is expected in this update? Did I miss a thread or communication somewhere? Is this unstructured outdoor rides?

This should be part of plan builder. Not have the user pick ftp vs pl levels, but have a way to pick the type of riding you want to improve at. Not the drop down that it has now but more a multi question form. I mean sure, a racer preparing for a certain type of race could get by with a simple answer, but the rest of us should be able to pick between sprint and endurance for what you care about more.

Once the system can analyze outdoor rides maybe present the user with a list of their hard rides so they can pick which they want to get better at. Maybe allow marking rides on the calendar for ones you want to improve on.

It’s mentioned in several threads all around as the future solution for unstructured workouts and more. Still no timeline mentioned for when we may get it yet.


This doesn’t make sense. If we assume ai ftp is right then ignoring increases in ftp isn’t allowing you to get more time in zone as you are getting more time at a lower percent of ftp. (Just because you’re ignoring your ftp going up shouldn’t mean anything)

Though I guess this is when it becomes important to tell the difference between a ok change and an ftp change

I’d be very happy for it to be fully automatic, with the proviso that unstructured outdoor rides are taken into account. Until that point, I’d happily opt for the manual update and just spend a little more time working through the levels, as I’m doing now.

It doesn’t change it every time. It does a series of checks after a ride to see if we need to change FTP.


It think it does make sense, in that whenever your FTP is reset your PLs change, and so the AI will say "Aha! You had worked your way up to 3 × 20 minutes Threshold workouts, but there’s no way you can handle that at this new FTP, so I’ll knock you down to 3 × 12s.

Not what you want if you’re trying to work on your ability to work hard for longer. Out, then up. Out, then up.


Nice work guys.

A quick question (though I think I know the answer): As well as detecting any increases, presumably Auto AIFTP would also detect if you’ve been struggling (based on survey answers, reducing workout intensity, not completing workouts, etc.) and prompt you automatically if you had an FTP decrease?


Exciting times, Nate - thanks for the update!

Few thoughts;

I guess the acid test would be how sensitive in predicting change the model is. Too sensitive and those frequent changes may become demoralising for some users - I could see this particularly for those who may not fully understand the change is designed to ensure optimal training and time in ‘zone’ / PL optimisation (be that a change up or down in FTP).

I think this is sensible if going down the route of smart AI FTP detection

So, if I’m understanding this right (assuming the released feature covers Auto & Manual), the user would have the option to ‘toggle’ between either ‘Manual’ or ‘Auto’; if in ‘Manual’ mode, the Ramp test workouts would still appear - as it does today if using AI FTP Detection - but the user could effectively choose to either a) accept the AI FTP (and get a replaced workout) or b) conduct the ramp test? On the flip side, if in ‘Auto’ mode you’d never see the ramp test, it would always be a workout by default and FTP would just be auto set by AI?

Would the auto detection differ in the user message subject to whether that’s being set based on the start of a plan vs mid plan i.e. as a replacement for the ramp test vs how you’re performing / progressing mid plan?

One final point, it’s not a huge one, but maybe worth consideration;

I’m mainly a runner and thus still need to use Training Peaks to keep track of my CTL, ATL and TSB (for rTSS mainly). Keeping bike TSS inline with TR is straight forward when FTP changes infrequently however with Auto detection I could see this (possibly) becoming a pain if AI changes more often - I’m probably part of a small proportion of the user base that would be impacted by this so I wouldn’t expect this to be high on the priority list but just something to have on the back burner. Ideally, I’d be able to cancel my Training Peaks subscription if TR could get the the point where running TSS is calculated and added to the main calendar page where (think you alluded to this on a recent podcast) TR could have an equivalent of the PMC to track overall ‘fitness’ and ‘fatigue’ across multiple disciplines and (longer term) have that all feed into AT - this for me would make TR my single and only platform for not only training but overall load management.

As always, very much appreciate you and the team reaching out to the user base for feedback to support with the decision making around new features. It really sets TR apart from it’s competitors and I very much value that, so thanks, and keep up the good work.

Cheers, Paul.


Love this idea…but for small changes in FTP, rather not bother… let’s face it - if your FTP doesn’t end in a 5 or 0, your kidding yourself about accuracy! :joy:

I.e. rounding to nearest 5 watts is accurate enough (especially with error % of power meters).


I voted auto only but honestly I may still do a ramp test every now and again. I enjoy the build up and anticipation of testing. (I even enjoy the fear and intrepidation ahead of each ramp test)

Edit: excited to see how auto works though and I have no doubt long term it will help me get faster


I think the better question is if ai ftp your current ability or what your current maximum should be? Current ability means if it’s lower for any reason, it will be lower (fatigue, feeling sick, break from training) so needing more recovery means you’re ftp could be going down. So kind of need the red/green functionality so it can give better context is saying it detects you are fatigued so will decrease your ftp and tell you to rest more. Otherwise you could see it as a reason to push harder and dig yourself deeper