# Aerobic Metabolism, LT1, and the Inefficient Athlete **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Created:** [March 3, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256 "2022-03-03T14:30:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Peterreynolds](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/peterreynolds/32/7725_2.png) [@Peterreynolds](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Peterreynolds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 10:19pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/23 "2022-03-03T22:19:50Z")
I’ve just bought the book!! Second chapter now. Got totally stung on shipping to the UK, but hoping it will help me understand the process of self coaching towards an IM I’ve listened to a fair bit of podcasts with Dr Attia, San Milan and Skiba. So interesting to listen to, and it coincided with (the reason for choosing, also) a polarised plan which I’ve just finished with promising results. Hearing about the positive health benefits of having a higher Z2 (in relation to w/kg) sold it to me, just being more efficient Using the HRV4Training app has shown a positive trend for HRV with higher Z2 work. I know it’s kinda been debunked, but it seems to correlate well. ---
**Author:** ![nexusone2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/nexusone2012/32/90887_2.png) [@nexusone2012](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/nexusone2012)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 10:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/24 "2022-03-03T22:39:28Z")
So today I decided to jump on and do an erg mode Zone 2 (from power) endurance ride. I essentially performed the ride in a liver glycogen depleted state but not a muscle glycogen depleted state. The first 20 minutes of the ride felt like an RPE of 4 on a 10 point scale and my breathing was very much conversational. After the 20 minute mark I noticed my heart rate drifted substantially. Holding 144 watts at the beginning of the ride my heart rate stayed locked at 128 BPM. Then after the 20 minute mark, heart rate climbed over the course of 5-10 minutes, RPE was approaching a 6 on the 10 point scale, I felt washed out, and I noticed I needed to breath harder. My heart rate climbed into the lower 140’s at this point. I consumed a spotted ripe banana and after 15 minutes all values returned to baseline. Heart rate dropped into the upper 120’s. RPE dropped to a 4 and my breath rate slowed to a extremely comfortable conversational pace. My last 7 weeks of training has been following Sweet Spot Base I low volume which is essentially 3 days of just intervals. I hike/trail run on the weekends anywhere from 2-3 hours at a conversational pace. This experience makes the physiological gears within my head turn. I wish I had a blood lactate meter because I suspect that even at a power calculated zone 2 level I was still producing lactate approaching or exceeding 2 mmol easily. I think it was a very humble realization that my aerobic abilities are trashed right now. But what does this say to all of us who are following the low volume plans? Again, I stumbled upon this thought because it occurred to me listing to Dr. Attia that I might be building an ability to be carb dependent, I am not “optimizing my mitochondria”, and it has seriously pushed me into a more polarized mindset. I realize a bit of this is obvious, I didn’t do any endurance rides the last 7-8 weeks so my endurance is trash. But I hear so many people that essentially argue that skipping the endurance and going right to the sweet spot essentially “evens that out”. I am not convinced it does. ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 10:59pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/25 "2022-03-03T22:59:38Z")
> [@nexusone2012](#): > > But I hear so many people that essentially argue that skipping the endurance and going right to the sweet spot essentially “evens that out”. I am not convinced it does. Who says that? ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:00pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/26 "2022-03-03T23:00:36Z")
Spotted bananas should fuel every workout? I’ve never even thought about liver glycogen. There is a lot of info in that post. Once you establish basic aerobic fitness, heart rate drift is something you shouldn’t see during 1-2 hour endurance rides. IMHO. Throw out the first 20-30 minutes and then look at aerobic decoupling, a metric available in a few places. Focus on that. TR low volume is something like 3 hours per week. You can’t do a lot on 3 hours/week. Pick something to focus on. ---
**Author:** ![nexusone2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/nexusone2012/32/90887_2.png) [@nexusone2012](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/nexusone2012)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:02pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/27 "2022-03-03T23:02:25Z")
I mean, it’s the impression I get from looking at the use of sweet spot as a tool in the absence of time to do Zone 2 endurance training. Its the foundation for which my training program was built on. Sweet Spot low volume I was doing 3 days a week of intervals. ---
**Author:** ![nexusone2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/nexusone2012/32/90887_2.png) [@nexusone2012](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/nexusone2012)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:03pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/28 "2022-03-03T23:03:13Z")
I chose the bananas because I had it on hand, otherwise I probably would of picked a source that has less fructose. ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/29 "2022-03-03T23:08:04Z")
Spotted or non spotted? My point is it sounds like you are focusing on the color of the moss on the trees, rather than the forest. ---
**Author:** ![nexusone2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/nexusone2012/32/90887_2.png) [@nexusone2012](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/nexusone2012)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/30 "2022-03-03T23:09:55Z")
Spotted meaning the starch within is has broken down more and in practice should hit my system faster in the form of glucose. ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:10pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/31 "2022-03-03T23:10:38Z")
> [@nexusone2012](#): > > But I hear so many people that essentially argue that skipping the endurance and going right to the sweet spot essentially “evens that out”. I am not convinced it does. Good, because it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:12pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/32 "2022-03-03T23:12:02Z")
Spotted means I hurry up and eat it, before it turns brown. Start here: > **[Are You Fit? All About Aerobic Endurance and Decoupling](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/aerobic-endurance-and-decoupling/)** > > What is decoupling and why is it important to your training? Joe Friel explains the role of decoupling in aerobic endurance and how to test it. and here: > **[How To Use Aerobic Decoupling | TrainingPeaks](https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-use-aerobic-decoupling/)** > > Aerobic decoupling is a metric that is often overlooked. However, as coach Kyle Wolfe explains, cyclists, triathletes, and runners can use it in training and racing to indicate gains in fitness, understand fueling needs, and create the right pacing... and I’ll toss in this story from 2009: [http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2009/11/aerobic-base-ride.html](http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2009/11/aerobic-base-ride.html) And maybe go see the doctor for a physical. ---
**Author:** ![nexusone2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/nexusone2012/32/90887_2.png) [@nexusone2012](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/nexusone2012)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/33 "2022-03-03T23:14:36Z")
I have checked those articles out in the past actually, they are great. ---
**Author:** ![Aplcr0331](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/aplcr0331/32/118333_2.png) [@Aplcr0331](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Aplcr0331)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/34 "2022-03-03T23:14:39Z")
> [@nexusone2012](#): > > But I hear so many people that essentially argue that skipping the endurance and going right to the sweet spot essentially “evens that out”. I am not convinced it does. Never heard anyone say this. Are you talking about some guy on your group ride said this? How do you tell when your liver is depleted of glycogen? Are you saying you were fasted? In all of your research have you seen a **no shit prescription** in _duration_ for **how long a Zone 2 ride needs to be** in order for “mitochondrial adaptations” to occur? I used to joke that 60 minutes was not enough, but learned my lesson. ---
**Author:** ![nexusone2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/nexusone2012/32/90887_2.png) [@nexusone2012](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/nexusone2012)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:18pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/35 "2022-03-03T23:18:20Z")
This is a great article on the science of ultra that explains the difference between liver vs localized muscle glycogen depletion. It changed my perspective of morning fasted rides that people tend to do: [Low Carb Training — SCIENCE OF ULTRA](https://www.scienceofultra.com/blog/lowcarbtraining?rq=fasted%20) ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:34pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/36 "2022-03-03T23:34:20Z")
Here is a great article I’m going to write for you now… given the title of this thread. Tuesday is my 2+ hour endurance ride day. You can make it 1 hour Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. Inside or outside. You are having anxiety about being inefficient and HR not being stable on zone2 rides. Lets assume you have an accurate FTP and zone2 estimate. You should be able to do something like what I did this week: ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/2/5/255b9c69b326abb9053d55467c848897f5a38be0.jpeg) Where Pw:Hr is aerobic decoupling and should be under 4% for the main set (without warmup and cooldown). That ride had 100 minutes of zone2 after a 10 minute warmup. So I selected the 100 minutes to see aerobic decoupling (despite getting unlucky with traffic early in the 100 minutes). Ignore that I did more than an hour. Make it TR low volume and do 1 hour. And do that repeatedly if you are concerned about basic aerobic fitness. Prioritize that over sweet spot. Do it for a few weeks until decoupling drops, I personally like to see it drop below 3%. Maybe your decoupling is already low, however if your HR is bouncing around like you posted then something seems amiss. Use your judgement. These types of rides should not require much carb fueling, they should be burning mostly fat on a relative basis. Now I believe talking diet is like talking about religion, but whatever, its the Internet so here is my opinion. In my religion, on zone2 endurance rides \>1 hour my goal is to consume about 33% (one third) of calories burned, then finish the ride and eat dinner within an hour. That ride for me was 1200kJ or roughly 1200 calories and I ate 4 granola bars on the bike which contained roughly 60g carbs and 400 cals. Always rough numbers. edit: Also @nexusone2012 its important to note that I am NOT a coach. You may lose fitness by only doing endurance rides. But along with a visit to the doctor, if you drive down aerobic decoupling (assuming its high), that will hopefully resolve the anxiety and you can start moving forward again without self doubt and second guessing. Also I think you should give this article: > **[Zone 2 Training to Improve Aerobic Endurance and Fat Burning](https://trainright.com/zone-2-training-to-improve-aerobic-endurance-and-fat-burning/)** > > Zone 2 describes low intensity training that develops aerobic endurance and establishes a foundation for more intense training to come. a read as it talks about the big picture, and hopefully rounds out your perspective. ---
**Author:** ![nexusone2012](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/nexusone2012/32/90887_2.png) [@nexusone2012](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/nexusone2012)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:38pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/37 "2022-03-03T23:38:46Z")
It’s been a few years since I used training peaks but I forgot about that metric that they easily show you with Pw:Hr. Might have to resign up since I am taking my training much more seriously. Thanks for the insights. I wonder in the back of my head if my on wheel turbo training might be introducing some power errors but with cadence the same during the ride I have my doubts about that theory. Good advice nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/38 "2022-03-03T23:39:59Z")
Free TrainingPeaks has it but only for the entire workout IIRC. One alternative is Intervals.icu. Or calculate yourself per one of that Friel article. ---
**Author:** ![mailman](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mailman/32/101794_2.png) [@mailman](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mailman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/39 "2022-03-03T23:40:59Z")
Excellent post. I really feel that too many people overlook the volume difference a Pro riders does and the downstream effects on how training “looks”. ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2022, 11:56pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/40 "2022-03-03T23:56:47Z")
Don’t get hung up on exact numbers, its better to think in ranges. Your body is not a robot. I’ve been doing a lot of endurance work over two years, so my zone2 power target range is on the higher side: ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/e/2/e24f88927ca44b320483e5287e1f7e39c2332e92.png) Use erg if you must, that is another religious issue and my religion prioritizes focusing on the mind/body connection. But if erg floats your boat, then just do it. Given what you wrote, I’d start at 56-66% range in case your FTP is overestimated. Use your judgement, you’ve read a lot and now its time to experiment and see what works. See if aerobic decoupling is low on the first 3 rides. Try with and without erg. Don’t be afraid to experiment. ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 12:02am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/41 "2022-03-04T00:02:32Z")
> [@WindWarrior](#): > > In my religion, on zone2 endurance rides \>1 hour my goal is to consume about 33% (one third) of calories burned, then finish the ride and eat dinner within an hour. I practice almost exactly the same religion, except mine is breakfast. Good one. ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 12:05am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256/42 "2022-03-04T00:05:18Z")
👍 I started with breakfast, after the gym spin bike in 2014-2015. [Previous page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256.md?page=1) [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/aerobic-metabolism-lt1-and-the-inefficient-athlete/70256.md?page=3)