21 year old overtrained on a low volume plan - Need Advice/Help and Reccomendations

That’s a little better, and I understand wanting to follow the most healthful diet you can. However starving yourself on 1000-1500 calories of nutritionally dense food is not going be the outcome you want.

There’s plenty of great athletes that follow very strict whole food, plant based diets. Rich Roll and Scott Jurek come to mind. They understand how many calories they’re burning in exercise and daily life and how to replace them to sustain themselves though. Based on this thread you clearly don’t. Even the new sample day is lacking in quantity.

I would challenge you to track your calories for a week. Write everything down and the quantities by weight and put it in a nutrition tracking app or crunch the numbers to see how many calories you’re actually taking in every day. If you really want to take your health/diet seriously, then that’s not a huge ask. Look at that number in relation to your TDE for a 21 year old active male, and add your TR workouts on top of it. You do not want to be at a deficit.

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You limit yourself to 5-7 grapes alongside your half-cup of oats? Or you mean, the ingredients are generally the same and you add a half cup of oats to the whole cup already included?

The rest of your diet sounds about as vegan as can be, but with a much broader understanding of healthy eating than the OP.

We’ve been trolled. :man_shrugging:

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Like others have said, a lot of diets are framed in the context of weight loss, and that’s not what you are after. This is an issue if you are on a vegan diet and then add further restrictions: most healthy vegan foods tend to be less nutrient dense, so you have to eat more volume of it to begin with. Stuff like salads takes up a lot of volume, but contains little calories. Bloated stomachs and the like are an issue when going vegan (and fueling appropriately).

I’m saying that because this makes it more difficult for you, because you might feel full, but are actually in need of more calories.

Your updated plan has a huge gaping hole: how do you fuel your workouts and what about post-workout nutrition?

For optimal training, you should consume as many carbs as possible on the bike. I eat gummi bears, drink gels and SIS energy and electrolyte mix. I try to consume 90–100 g carbs per hour. At my FTP (320–330 W) that is about half of the calories I burn during a workout. Your FTP is a bit lower, but even during Z2 workouts, you will not be able to balance the calorie loss with what you can ingest. How do I know? I meticulously take notes and weigh e. g. how many gummi bears I eat.

Limiting the calorie deficit is important for me, because it makes it easier to keep my portion size under control.

I would be very careful to follow any one person too closely. There is a lot of charlatanry in nutrition where people (intentionally or unintentionally) misrepresent research in various ways. For example, usually things like exercising regularly have a much, much, much larger impact than details of your diet.

Instead, I would try to learn the fundamental principles, i. e. how much protein do you need, what do you need to watch out for when it comes to variety, etc. I would also look for foods and recipes that you actually like. In my experience, the worst vegan food is vegan food that wants to imitate non-vegan food. The best vegan food is the one where you don’t realize it is vegan (like a good curry). IMHO you can only stick to a diet if you like the food.

The fundamentals hold for any type of diet and they make you understand better what you need and why. E. g. you can decide to up your protein intake in certain phases of training where you want to build muscle. Does it matter whether we are talking about pea protein or chicken breasts? The fundamentals are also least likely to get outdated.

Lastly, be very careful about claims that certain foods are healthy or unhealthy. Usually if you eat things like (vegan) ice cream in moderation, exercise regularly and keep your weight in the normal range, then you will likely live healthier. That’s why vegetarians and vegans have an advantage, they do better on average at these things. That’s also why it is so hard to figure out how much better vegans and vegetarians do when it comes to ailments, you need to disentangle all relevant factors. So don’t expect that you’ll be healthier if all you eat is vegan ice cream, vegan burgers and french fries.

No diet can do that. I would really caution you here. My daughter going to day care is infinitely more important when it comes to risking getting sick than anything I eat.

IMHO when you hear such claims, you should become very skeptical.

A vegan diet is not a panacea for health problems. It doesn’t magically make everything better. It doesn’t give you a 5 % higher FTP (otherwise every athlete would be on a vegan diet). The best available evidence as far as I know is that being vegan has no performance impact (positive or negative) as an athlete, but clearly, there are other upsides (climate-related, ethical). If I were vegan, I wouldn’t read that as a negative, but as a positive: I can be vegan with likely no impact to performance.

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I’m sorry but this isn’t how the immune system or cancer works.

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And there’s the sales pitch. WIth link included. Then the testimonial: “Sure, go vegan and you won’t catch covid.” You have literally 1-2 years of vegan diet and haven’t tested positive for covid. Great. I drink too much alcohol, eat all sorts of animal products, guzzle processed sugars (to improve training) and sometimes eat heavily smoked meats for no nutritional value, just for taste. I almost only eat vegetables when they’re smothered in blue cheese dressing. I haven’t tested positive for covid, either. I think I’ve blown my nose about 10 times in the last two years.

This conveniently discards literally tens of thousands of years during which virtually all human civilizations, the human genome, and the gut biome, have evolved to rely on at least some animal products for survival. But sure, “excess” is bad. Gluttony is bad. Does the risk arise at 1 ballpark beef hotdog per year? Per month? Or “winning” dollar dog day at the ballpark? Is the line at 1 egg per month, or a dozen per day?

Legitimate question, do any of the studies he references in his book take highly active individuals into account? I won’t be paying for the book.

Sounds like you’re promoting something unrelated to performance improvement here, since you’re talking about “protein per calorie” rather than actually fueling your life and training with sufficient calories.

I’ll do a little math on the broccoli protein per serving:1 cup (88grams) of broccoli has 2.5 g of protein. Compare to 1 egg (50 grams) and way less than 1 cup in volume, has 5 grams of protein. So if protein is what someone needs, they need to eat 2 cups of broccoli, or almost 180 grams, to even get within striking distance of an egg in protein. Someone else can do the caloric math if they care.

Go back to the basics. Eat enough to survive, maybe you’re there now. Eat enough to thrive as a healthy adult, hopefully you’re getting close with your adjustments. Eat more to fuel your performance. Get professional dietary help if you want to improve your lifting or riding. The author isn’t helping you perform better.

Fancy greens for dinner isn’t getting you past “thrive.” See Timon’s math on the arugula for context.

A vegan diet and performance aren’t mutually exclusive, but hyper specific and stringent diets based on ideals to be applied broadly to prevent obesity-related heart conditions probably aren’t compatible with 3 or more days of endurance training and 2 additional days of resistance training, particularly with a performance improvement goal, rather than “general health.”

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Like it just for accurate use of the word charlatanry. (Digs out dictionary and thesaurus just to be sure its right).

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Sooo…you looking for a new friend to come hang out with you? Sign me up.

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It wasn’t a personals ad… :innocent: I’m too busy for the friends I have… Anyways, I gotta light the grill this weekend. Come by around 6am, we’ll hit the trainers for an hour, maybe two, then light grill and go for an outside ride for an hour. Then come back, throw the roast on grill, imbibe and watch a meat thermometer crawl upward very slowly. Hickory, and mesquite on site already. Bring some apple or cherry chunks for balance.

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Waking at 4.30am so apologies if I am talking a bit garbled. I thought my lifestyle would stop me getting a lot of things. I was a 65kg healthy young athlete which had stopped me getting a lot of things but it never stopped me getting cancer. If it’s in your genes, its in your genes. So no matter what literature says I would urge anyone to get a simple blood test.

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So cute that he thinks sports is healty.
Living in general exposes you to untold harm, unless you are way off the grid.
When they looked for people without ptfe in their body, to identify the baseline and decide harmful levels… they could not find any.
You are poisoned by the air you breathe and water you drink.
Wake up and smell the becon.

As a fellow vegan, get of the raw stuff, eat more calories.
More rice, potatoes, pasta, tofu, tempeh and beans for dinner. Leafy greens are healthy, but they also kind of suck and provide nothing in the form of calories.

And on the bike, just eat bars, or gels, on the bike stuff is doesn’t have to be “health food”. I eat Nakd bars, which are smooshed dates with some nuts, so sort of healthy, but still lots of easy carbohydrate.

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I would very much like to know your height, to put your weight into some perspective.

Other than that, my thoughts on your diet and calorie intake has been more than adequately expressed earlier in the thread.

My rule is that on the bike I am allowed to eat “junk” like gummi bears or healthier. I would prefer eating more dried dates and figs, but that’d make training a lot more expensive where I live.

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Background: 21 years old, weight- 62-64kgs

it’s the first things in the post

But besides weight, BMI/ height to put it into perspective. I’m 87 kg, but at 189 cm, thats just fine. If i would be 150 cm, that something else.

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Provided we’re not just being trolled by the OP, for some more n=1 I have a friend who reminds me so much of him. My friend for about the last 10 years has latched onto specific diet related fads and gone all in on them for a while, felt great, then felt terrible then moved on. It’s like a Labrador chasing a ball. He’s been raw vegan, he’s been LCHF, he’s been keto, he’s now back to vegan, he’s focussed on fat adaptation, he’s tried to fuel exercise with purely natural products… None of these are perhaps inherently bad on their own, but misses the point that if you want to be a healthy, active person, you can do a lot worse than eat a balanced diet with a lot of diverse ingredients, and do a moderate amount of exercise. If you want to do more exercise, you’re going to have to eat more, particularly carbs and protein. If you want to do more high intensity exercise, you have to think your recovery through more adequately to ensure you don’t end up fried. If you’re not looking after these things then anything else is just shifting deckchairs on the Titanic. I feel sorry for people who end up overtrained but for a lot of people without underlying health conditions we’re the masters of our own destinies and need to take responsibility. I dug myself a hole once, plenty of people have, but people need to learn that if you keep under-fuelling and not recovering properly and go round and round in the cycle of overtraining, you’re going to damage your health long term and be in a worse place.

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There is so much good stuff being shared in this thread - I hope the OP is listening - either way a big thanks from me as a more recent vegan convert (see posts above).

OP, the revised plan looks better but as others have said it still looks like you are under fuelling. Using my example of a typical day above I did a rough calculation last night and even eating all that I was circa 800-500kcal in deficit…

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I was asking his height, not his weight.

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oops, reading is difficult :grin:

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yep - did think this might be trolling as frankly I dont see anyone lasting more than a couple of days eating that little :wink:

I dont limit grapes :rofl: I have 1 tablespoon each of sunflower, pumpkin, hemp, chia and flax seeds and chopped mixed nuts, along with a big scoop of fresh fruit compote :wink:

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That is correlation, not causation.

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