2020 XC Bike Thread

Nino is sponsored by SRAM (literally a title sponsor of his team) and they own the Shockwiz so I’m guessing they have access to more data than what’s publicly available to consumers. I’m guessing the same thing is true for pro downhill riders too.

Yes of course, but curious minds want to know :wink:

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I think it’s as simple as measuring the relationship between travel and bumps measured on the accelerometer.

Occam’s razor strikes again!

It would be interesting to see SRAM incorporate the Shockwiz technology into Rockshox suspension products directly. It would make it easier and a great way to get quick feedback after every ride.

Perhaps the future would then be having the option of it making on the fly adjustments to the suspension, somewhat akin to the Brain or LiveValve, but using data from larger segments of the ride to tweak rebound dampening, compression, and perhaps even air pressure.

They’ve incorporated the tirewiz directly into the Zipp 3Zero Moto wheels. I’m sure there has to be a Shockwiz/rockshox collab on the horizon.

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Slightly left field but after my Spark beat me senseless last time out on an 8hr race it took me lots of googling to find someone else’s rebound settings - Nino’s. It wasn’t specific but stated he runs it fast. Well, because of the progressive nature I’d assumed a slower rebound setup and had gone too far. At the weekend I trialed it all again using a faster setting assuming Nino wouldn’t do it for nothing other than good reason, and… success. Bike feeling much better with 4 clicks less damping.

It’s a bit odd as a couple of the mainstream reviews of the bike suggest a slower rebound setup. I’d hypothesise that a very active setup might explain why Nino makes so much use of the twin lock, because on a skittish downhill section you do not want it bouncing off roots as it would be whilst in the traction mode with a fast rebound, but going uphill having it very active in traction mode means it’ll roll over rather than thud into and absorb roots and square edges (I think) causing less drag and effort.

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Taking basic principals such as energy loss to friction and applying them broadly to say that they affect real-world speed is a very, very large jump. In their interview with the TrainerRoad team, Specialized referenced several times that the relationship between basic principals such as friction, air resistance, hysteresis, and weight all had a non-linear association with real-world speed, in some cases much to their surprise. For a specific example, the fact that high PSI and narrow tires have low rolling resistance in the lab does not equate to faster times on the road. Quite the opposite, lower PSI and wider tires ended up with overall faster times/speed. Another example they discussed was aerodynamics - the Venge is (was) faster in the lab and in a multitude of conditions, but then on the road in real-world conditions at distances where generalized fatigue became an issue (kJ limited), the Tarmac was faster due to compliance.

Just two examples of the dangers we might encounter when we take basic physics principals and attempt extrapolating out to real-world conditions. Does this mean that a lockout is always slower? Absolutely not. Does it mean that a lockout is always faster? Absolutely not. These generalized statements cannot hold true for all conditions, which I believe has been the point of the non-lockout discussion side of things here.

This white paper reference is dealing with motor vehicles, not bikes. See above about extrapolation.

Thanks! Enjoying the discussion

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You asked for science :man_shrugging:

A moving shock is an energy consumer whether it’s in a car, a bike or a motorcycle. You can put that information into how you setup your bike however it pleases you.

And a non moving shock is a energy waster in pedaling efficiency over bumps. This conversation is now beating a dead horse.

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Which is why you lock out your shock in non-bumpy sections. What are you missing?

See previous post re: extrapolating basic principals. I haven’t seen any science yet, only assumptions and extrapolation.

100%. Agree to disagree, thanks all!

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Yes, all assumptions and pseudoscience leads every top level XC bike to be spec’d with a lockout :joy:

Cannondale Scalpel:
Lefty Ocho Carbon, 100mm, Chamber Damper with remote lockout, OppO Spring System, tapered steerer, 55mm offset

Canyon Lux:
RockShox SID Worldcup 100 mm Remote: Remote Lever

Scott Spark:
RockShox SID Select+ RL3 Air Tapered steerer TwinLoc Lockout

Specialized Eipc:
RockShox SID SL ULTIMATE BRAIN (automatic dampening), Top-Adjust Brain damper
Brain Technology in Epic forks and shocks knows the difference between pedaling force and bump force. It keeps suspension firm on smooth terrain and switches suspension to fully active the instant things get rough.

BMC Fourstroke
Fox Float 32 SC, Factory, FIT4, Kashima, Remote Lockout 100mm

New technology, such as Fox LiveValve, which incorporates an automatic lockout designed to optimize climbing performance…"On flat and inclined sections of asphalt the Live Valve puts itself into a lockout mode*** is all based on fiction and fantasy. Okie dokey, whatever floats your boat! :joy:

To summarize, you are saying that every manufacturer is ignoring science and data and just whipping these bikes together with suspension lockouts for the heck of it and every pro using one is just dogmatic. :joy:

Yes, we agree to disagree! :joy:

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Most of them don’t come setup tubeless out of the box. That doesn’t mean tubes are faster.

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Seriously? Have you ever shipped a bike with 2oz of latex sealant in the tires? It has nothing to do with speed. Please, move on.

(my attempt to change the topic)

andnow

I want to talk about the Lefty

Who has ridden one?

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Not sure if just looking at the pros/manufacturers are always the best way to determine what is best/fastest?

  • disc brakes in roadbikes
  • 22c tyres @ 120 psi
  • no one using dropper at XCO until recently
  • geometry of past XC bikes
  • Tire width of past XC bikes

Just to mention a few things the industry told us was the best way forward in a not to distant past…

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I used to be very interested in the lefty… Until the fox SC and Sid became lighter :joy:

I feel slightly guilty as I may have started the lockout topic… :grinning: But agree, let’s move to talk about new bikes. I am still uhming and ahing between the purer XC bikes like the Spark, the Scalpel or something with a little more travel like the Top Fuel or the Scalpel SE.

I ride mainly endurance type events and my weakness is going down - so am thinking something with a little more travel and a little less steep HA may benefit me.

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Meet yourself in the middle? Like a intense sniper or epic or spark with a slack head angle but not 120mm of travel and extra weight.

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