PowerMatch Experiences

That’s great thanks. Next week is the mid block recovery week for me on build so I’m thinking best to just wait till scheduled ramp test.

And your right - can’t wait to try them

Previously used my Stages L with Tacx Vortex. Short intervals…up to 1 minute… were terrible…to the point of being a waste of time which prompted me to purchase a Neo. When it arrived, I subscribed to TR so never actually used the Vortex with TR’s Power Matching.

Quite impressed with how closely and quickly the Neo tracks. It’s not perfect but it’s good. Initially I saw a very slight over compensation spike when a high power interval occurred which usually lasted about 1-2 secs, but since I’ve switched to lowered gears this initial spike has disappeared and it tracks accurately almost immediately.

On a side note, I wish the turbo manufacturers would introduce a port to allow cables for connectivity.

I think you missed his point. @tcrick is trying to keep consistent training by doing intervals/workouts using the same measure of power. So it doesn’t matter if the Assiomas is higher/lower, but it will likely be different and thus throw off his training zones.

So Yes @tcrick, connect the Assiamos, but maybe to your bike computer and leave the Kickr Snap as is controlling your ERG for now. You could connect your Assiamos to your bike computer as you train and see the offset in power compared to your Kickr power. Would be good to know how close the power numbers track (between the two devices) depending on the workouts and different zones. For instance, the Kickr could read low at 50% FTP, be equal at 100% then read high at 120%. That would be good information to know relative to your previous FTPs so you can track progress month over month and year over year. For instance, if your Kickr Snap consistently reads 20w higher than your Assiamos, then in theory you could assume all your previous FTPs on the Kickr Snap based on 75% of your 1 min power were 20 watts inflated. This would allow you to compare new Assiamos power numbers with old Kickr Snap numbers.

Then, assuming your Ramp Test isn’t too far away (withing a week or 2) you could then use the Assiomas and TR’s Powermatch going forward. I would also encourage you to use Powermatch a few times over the next week or so during some of your indoor z2 rides to ensure you have any bugs worked out. You don’t want to discover Powermatch is having issues the day of your ramp test and you have to fiddle around to get it to work right. Or maybe there is a reaction delay or other specific issue to your set up that you’d want to know before it’s test time.

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Thanks - this is great and really helpful. Good tip on not using powermatch 1st on the ramp test. Luckily it’s lined up well with a recovery week next week

Yes. Perfect time to retest w/the what will be your new power reference going forward, i.e., the Assiomas :+1:

POWERMATCH IS JUNK!!!* @Nate_Pearson what is going on with PowerMatch. I was all excited to do my first ramp test with my new Quarq XX1 and PowerMatch. Instead I got power spikes throughout the ramp test as high as 30-40+ watts even when my cadence was consistent…



Then the final punch in the face was when I reached near the magical 19:30 mark of the ramp test I purposely started lowering my cadence to grind out the last minute or two. However, as my cadence dropped so did my power, as if PowerMatch wanted me to stay at 80-90 rpm. I like/need to grind out the end of ramp tests and can hold a low cadence and high power for a minute or so more. I thought that’s what I was doing as I had my head down not looking at my power. I was quite mad :face_with_symbols_over_mouth: to lift up my head when I stopped only to see that PowerMatch didn’t match the power! My Kickr ERG always held the power no matter my cadence until it grinded me to a halt. Why can’t PowerMatch do the same @Nate_Pearson ??? So I spend all this money on my new Quarq and TR software can’t keep up?

What’s even more frustrating is that my cadence leveled out in the mid 50 rpms for the last 1:30 and still PowerMatch didn’t Match the ERG power. Why not?!!!

I’m pretty annoyed as I was expecting a decent FTP bump. Instead I just have to throw away this ramp test result and I’m at a lost on how to use PowerMatch going forward with TR. I previously tested out the Quarq (Kickr using ERG and PM on bike computer) and the PM read 2-5% higher at any given time and 2% higher normalized power for the same TR workout.

Welcome to my world, I would never use powermatch for an FTP test and only really use it for recovery rides, everything else is done in standard/resistance mode.

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Really?! Talk about hyperbole! Powermatch works fine for me and probably the majority of TR users. I used it for years w/a Kickr and p2max combo. Nowadays, I have a Neo and p2max combo.

First, how about verifying your setup and providing more useful troubleshooting information. Since, you mentioned using Kickr ERG, I assume you are using a Kickr? So on to your problem… The Quarq and Kickr are both paired to TR. Powermatch is enabled. Is this correct?

What version of TR are you using?
What Kickr firmware are you using?
Quarq firmware updated?
Quarq battery status?
Are you ANT+ or Bluetooth?
If ANT+, are you using a USB extension cable?

In looking at your graphs, if you are expecting a smooth line, you need to reset your expectations. Your power output no matter how steady your cadence is will not get you a smooth line. If you were using the Kickr ERG and seeing smooth graphs, that is because the smoothing was enabled on the Wahoo side (via app) and thus producing really smooth pretty graphs albeit fake!

Here is a screenshot from of the Neo w/out Powermatch but using ERG mode:

Here is another of using the p2max and Neo w/Powermatch in ERG mode:

Notice they both show variations in power. This is normal

That said, your last couple screenshots where the power drops way below the target is not normal. If you can provide some more info, maybe we can help you here. Otherwise, open a support ticket. They will probably ask for the same info :smile:

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The power spikes don’t look that abnormal. However something was definitely wrong when your cadence slowed and power match didn’t correct. It should have been upping the resistance on the trainer.

I’ve seen this happen during a regular workout. I had to exit the workout and reboot my iPad. After that everything was fine. I have gotten into the habit of always shutting down my iPad after TR workouts and then booting back up before my next workout. This was suggested to me some time back for an unrelated issue by the TR support staff.

I think TR support needs to look at your files/log and see if they can figure out what happened. Sucks that it happened during a Ramp Test, but I suspect the issue is solveable.

FWIW I’ve been using PowerMatch with Kickr 2017 wheel off (direct drive) and Stages LR gen3 power meter. Working on everything. Only issues I’ve had is that gen2 Kickr thru 2017 use an optical sensor to estimate power, and therefore is susceptible sunlight, reflections, and even the shadow of my body from an overhead light. Fixed the problem once Wahoo finally (sheepishly) told me it was an issue, and had me put something non-reflective on the floor (black mat on concrete garage floor).

First, the OP title is POWERMATCH EXPERIENCE, and so I am giving the forum mine.” Second, I’m not looking for support, I use TrainerRoad Support for that. That’s great it works perfect for you, your n=1 experience is helpful.

Of course everything is updated regarding firmware and everything was calibrated prior to the Ramp Test during a Free Ride warm up, both the the Kickr Snap and the Quarq. Every variable is/was constant and accounted for, PowerMatch was the only change/addition.

No, I don’t expect a smooth power lines thanks, I understand how power smoothing and ERG works. That’s why I said ”spikes of 30-40+ watts” with a consistent cadence.

So if we’re done throwing jabs at each other maybe we can be of some use to this topic.

BTW, everything was setup Bluetooth to an IPad.

I have the same setup with Quarq Dzero on my bike and a Kickr 2018. My first ramp test failed because resistance was dropping to zero or wouldn’t bump up to the next step. I went back into the settings, found the PowerMatch, looked up what it is all about and immediately turned it off. My second ramp test had no problems.

Trying to do a tight feedback control loop over wireless and with other manufacturer’s hardware is just asking for neverending problems. Kudos to TR for attempting it though! I would put that feature in the experimental category and keep it there.

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Did you go back to using the Kickr’s power and ignore your PM? My thought is to do several workouts having my bike computer use the PM. Then compare the two workout files and see if there is a consistent offset (ie: a percentage or X watts). Then I could set the offset manually in TR and not use PowerMatch. Or at lest I’d know my offset for outdoors.

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Yes. I have chosen to just manually verify Kickr resistance with the Quarq via my head unit and let the Kickr do its own thing. Luckily, it matches very closely.

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My test workout below, first half TR using Kickr ERG and second half TR using Quarq; difference in the first 45:00 portion (compared to bike computer) was NP of 191 (Kickr) versus 195 (Quarq). So 4 watts over 45:00 for about a 2% offset. If that stays constant over some more test workouts I’d be ok with that.

And if you look at my included screenshots, you will see “spikes” as well, some of which are +30W over the target power while I maintain a smooth cadence. The reality is our power output is not smooth even w/a smooth cadence. Powermatch is not going to make it any smoother. Again, those graphs look normal.

The lack of resistance when you drop the cadence near the end is a problem. Being that you’re on BLE to an iPad, it could have been bad luck/timing w/interference. Try a few more rides w/Powermatch to see if it was a one time issue. Perhaps, also try eliminating any interference such as 2.4GHz wifi since it uses the same frequency band as BLE. If not, you can either open a support ticket or not use Powermatch as some of the other user replies have stated.

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Oh and one more thing that might be relevant. The day before my ramp test I did a spindown. After my ramp test failed and I was looking in the Kickr device settings on TR I noticed that there was no calibration data despite having done a spindown the previous day. So somehow TR had silently lost the calibration data. It might be a coincidence but TR had pushed a software update on the same day, so it might be that a TR software update loses any saved calibration data?

Still I would have thought that calibration data would be saved on the Kickr in which case the TR software is just losing track of the date of your last spindown.

I’m OCD with consistent setup and do a spindown and calibrate before EVERY workout, yes, even recovery workouts. So that wasn’t my issue.

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You might have a constant offset. And if it’s only 2%, that is well within any reasonable expectation. If so, you would be lucky. Some Kickrs will drift over time as they warm up. Also, that was a rather steady state effort. If you were doing something like VO2max work, the, offset might be very different.

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I’m into week 1 of SSB 2 mid volume, so I think I’ll do the next week or so testing ERG versus bike computer. That should get me plenty of variation in effort and FTP percentages.