I do. brb, I’ll post examples
I didn’t use the term VO2max:
This is a little crazy making, so I’ll use an analogy. Say you have two motors fed from the same gas tank, what happens when:
- the first motor is operating at maximum, drawing lets say 4 liters of gas per minute
- the second motor is turned on
Will the fuel line still be delivering 4 liters of gas per minute? Or will gas delivery exceed 4 liters per minute?
I assumed by “state of max oxygen consumption”, you meant at max VO2.
The answer to your question depends upon whether your fuel pump can deliver more than 4 litres of gas per minute.
A quick search turned up this:
And please go register your complaints with the academics on improper use of vo2max.
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand the relevance of that article to the question at hand. Everyone knows that peak VO2 in non-cyclists during cycling is usually slightly lower than true VO2max…don’t they?
Did you even read the abstract?
“Hence, VO2max is specific to the exercise modality”
It appears everyone is just arguing over the definition of VO2max, and @old_but_not_dead_yet happens to have a stance that is different than this particular paper (and pretty much every other paper I’ve seen).
Everything you’re saying is literally/conceptually true, but I feel like you’re over-extrapolating the conceptual definition of VO2max waaaay beyond any practical use of the term, or any functional ability to actually measure VO2 in the first place.
VO2max could be defined as the conceptual maximal rate of full body O2 uptake. What does that even mean? If every muscle fiber, every mitochondria, every organ, every biochemical process in our bodies were working at full gas, how much O2 would we be V’ing? Is this relevant if we’re never gonna see it under any circumstance? (take it up with our human brain… it doesn’t think working anywhere near “max” is good for our health. It’s gonna stop us waaay before we get close to anything “maximal” )
We have to apply definitions to humans in the real world. We have to choose the exercise modality, test protocol, intensity & duration, measurement criteria, measurement device, data processing, etc. And those humans might be limited on any given day by any number of psycho-physiological rate-limiting steps.
It’s certainly an interesting thought experiment, but let’s consider context and applicability when we talk about HRmax, VO2max, FTP, or anything else performance related.
I still have more thoughts, but I just encountered this 2016 paper discussing the various methodological variabilities inherent in measuring “VO2max”. Probably worth a read. Full paper. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jsm/2016/3968393/
The literature seems to be replete with objections to using the term max VO2 to describe what is only a sport-specific peak value, as everybody else here is doing. This is but the most recent example.
But that’s not how VO2max is defined, so your mind-blowing thought experiment really isn’t necessary. As the very article you cited states:
"It must be appreciated that a difference exists between VO2peak and VO2max and that these terms are often used interchangeably in the literature. That is, VO2peak is the highest value attained during exercise and represents an individual’s exercise tolerance while VO2max represents the highest physiologically attainable value . Interestingly, a VO2max is always a peak but a VO2peak is not always maximal. "
Alright, I’m out. Don’t feed the troll folks
Exactly my point! We have to define VO2max, somewhat arbitrarily in the end. Are we talking about modality-specific VO2max? For cycling are we using a graded exercise test? What was the W/sec ramp rate? What was the criteria for VO2 plateau? RER >1.10? >1.15? Are we measuring ventilation breath by breath or via mixing chamber? Are we looking for peak 15sec VO2? peak 30sec? 60sec? What’s the measurement error of the metabolic device in the first place? etc. etc.
The definition has to be protocol/context-dependent in the first place. I think that was the back-and-forth discussion around Poole & Jones’ article that you posted as well.
can you quote the textbook this is from? Max O2 extraction seems like a pretty vague term here
According to Wikipedia, the equation dates back 150 years, to this article.
With that in mind, do mtbers record higher V02 Max than Roadies?
(Of an equal training standard)
All else equal (ie underlying “fitness”) I’d expect yes. Eg riding up a rocky rooty climb not only requires legs, but also core and upper body to move the bike around.
My understanding is that the limiter on v02max depends on individual physiology. It could be o2 uptake, delivery, or consumption. In reality, there is not a single limiter and they compensate for each other to some degree, but someone with a very poor uptake or delivery system is not likely to see big V02 max swings based on additional muscle recruitment since they are already up against the limits in other areas. I’m not an expert on such matters, but that’s how it’s been explained to me by some claimed experts.
Agree. If heart is maxed out, recruiting more muscles won’t increase VO2max.
This discussion is on of the things that prompted my thread on what causes you to stop in the ramp test.
Aw, I was enjoying that. And secretly glad I joined the thread late.
Well that’s sorted then. Long mtb rides are the answer. Regardless of the question